Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th June 2013, 04:58 PM   #1
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,635
Default Keris Sundang Melayu with twist core

Like CharlesS, I also have a weak spot for the Malay versions of the large keris.
Here is my latest find with a nice twist core and a scabbard usually not seen matched with a Malay keris of this size.

Michael
Attached Images
      
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2013, 06:09 PM   #2
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,659
Default

What a nice example! I love the twistcore. Heavily etched. You can tell the unique okir work of the this piece versus that found on Moro pieces.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2013, 08:28 PM   #3
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,942
Default

WoW!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2013, 09:32 PM   #4
CharlesS
Member
 
CharlesS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 1,504
Default

Super piece Michael. What dramatic twistcore.

The scabbard looks like a Sumatran keris scabbard.

What a beaut!
CharlesS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2013, 09:48 PM   #5
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 801
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS

The scabbard looks like a Sumatran keris scabbard.


Actually it's called Sampir Kusiwo and comes from northern Malay states. I thought, it would be more typical for Kelantan and Kedah, yet I could be wrong.

Yet the curved Loto, typical for this Sampir, surely is influenced by Palembang.

Very interesting and nice ensemble, Michael!
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2013, 12:03 AM   #6
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,659
Default

yowza! now that's a twistcore!!! excellent find, Michael!!!
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2013, 08:50 AM   #7
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,118
Default

Not my usual field of interest - but its a great looking piece !
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2013, 09:40 AM   #8
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,635
Default

Thanks,

My reasons are based on a combination of: the size (2" shorter blade than yours and smaller than the regular mid to late 19th C kris), the flow of the waves (see Kino's comment), features at the "sorsoran"-area, the miniature pommel and the way the twist core is done.

Michael
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2013, 12:24 PM   #9
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,518
Default

Thank you Michael.

Yes, I can understand how length of this type of keris might influence one to think it was from an earlier period.

I'm not sure that the luk form tells us anything in the absence of documented comparison pieces. I note Kino's comment, but this is not a Moro keris.

I've seen perhaps 3 or 4 of these keris over the last 30 years or so, and the features in the sorsoran are always done in the same way.

To my eye, this miring pamor is the style of work I expect to see in later pieces. The techniques and technology required to weld this type of pamor and to achieve this degree of perfection did not develop until relatively recently in the areas of keris production with which I am familiar.

Frankly, I have very little knowledge of keris outside the core areas of keris tradition, however, applying the tells that I use in my own area of expertise, I would place this blade at no earlier than the first quarter of the 19th century, and the dress as somewhat later.(19th century = 1800's)

Just as a matter of interest, what is considered to be an early date for a Moro style keris? What would be the date attached to the earliest documented example?
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2013, 12:41 PM   #10
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,635
Default

Alan,

I will not be home with my reference works (like Scott's work on how the Spaniards described the Philippines in the 16th C) for two weeks but here are several reference krisses, datings and most of the earlier discussion on this issue on this forum.

"archaic kris threads"

I would consider the early 19th C kris as archaic and those krisses that closely resemble an Indonesian keris as proto- or transitional kerisses.
Here is an example of a "proto-kris" that I would date as earlier than the one in my first post (next to a regular-sized Madura keris).

Michael
Attached Images
 

Last edited by VVV : 19th June 2013 at 01:10 PM. Reason: added Scott's book for someone else to check and "early" before 19th C on dating archaic krisses
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2013, 09:48 PM   #11
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,518
Default

Thank you Michael.

So the period around 1800 is considered to be about the time when these Southern Philippine swords in the form of a keris began to appear?

Thanks. That's pretty much as I had thought.

I tried the "archaic" link you provided, but it took me nowhere.

I look forward to your further comments.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2013, 02:17 PM   #12
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 801
Default

Alan, I agree, we are actually saying the same.

The discussion for me started actually with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To my eye, this miring pamor is the style of work I expect to see in later pieces. The techniques and technology required to weld this type of pamor and to achieve this degree of perfection did not develop until relatively recently in the areas of keris production with which I am familiar.



For me the pefection of twistcore Pamor in Moro pieces is almost inexplicable, even more, becouse this is almost the only one Miring pattern we see in Moro blades. Just like they weren't interested in something other.

And exactly this is the thing that lets me think about Turkish Yataghans, where we encounter the same thing. No other technicques, perhaps some exeptional Adeg (like in some rare Moro blades), only twistcore, yet quite perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Of the examples you list, the Sendai keris has pamor sanak I believe. It was examined by a Javanese gentleman --- Martowikrodo or a similar name --- and he states this in his report. I've read this somewhere, but I forget where. It might be on the net.



Actually I posted this article in the thread about Sendai Keris.
I can assure you, the pamor of it seems to be Miring, it could be even twistcore, yet it surely isn't Sanak. I am not allowed to show a picture of it.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2013, 11:14 PM   #13
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,518
Default

Gustav, I have now had the opportunity to examine perhaps the best screen photograph that is available of the Sendai keris. I have Photoshopped this image and reworked it to the limit of my capability, I have viewed the results on a high resolution screen, and then examined the screen image with a good quality magnifying glass; my eyes test at 20/20 wearing reading glasses.

In the sorsoran area of the Sendai Keris I can see some very faint, very slight white marks; in my opinion these marks, or traces, could be due to a number of reasons. I most definitely cannot see anything that would permit me to state categorically that the Sendai Keris has pamor miring.

Here is a link to the article by Wahyono Martokrido that you posted on 21st September 2012.


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...06&page=2&pp=30


What Wahyono Martokrido says about the pamor in this keris is:-

The pamor is light grey in color, showing the patterns of curvy lines. The color of the pamor is not so contrast to that of the iron. This pamor can be categorized as pamor sanak, i.e. pamor made of different iron with so small difference in grain size and phosphorous (and arsenic) content in the metal.[13]
( the reference "13" is to Prof. Piaskowski's 1995 paper, a paper in which I had some involvement)

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this matter relating to the Sendai Keris Gustav, I can see no evidence of pamor miring, Martokrido could see only pamor sanak, and he held the thing in his hands.

I will accept that you can see firm evidence of pamor miring, but I cannot.

However, Martokrido does mention "---patterns of curvy lines---"; this indicates clearly that the pamor material has been folded and worked, but it cannot be taken as evidence that this working involved the miring technique.

Personally, I do not find the appearance of this twist pamor in Moro metal work to be so puzzling. Clearly it came from outside the area and was not an indigenous development.

There was solid, continuing trade and cultural contact between virtually all areas of Maritime SE Asia during the time in which this twist pamor in Moro weapons made its appearance; the most advanced smiths in the region during this period were those from Jawa/Madura (in this context Jawa and Madura can be considered as a single entity, the variation between the two places can be likened more to a district variation rather than anything else).

The style and execution of the pamor in the blade under discussion here, as well as other blades of this type that I personally have seen does appear to be Madurese. To my mind, this indicates a high probability that this pamor is a direct product of, or is linked to a smith, or smiths from Jawa/Madura, most likely Madura.

There is a possibility that the link for this pamor could be to some other place, and some cultural root. However, in light of the available evidence of trade and cultural contact across Maritime SE Asia, I do feel that a link to anywhere other than Jawa/Madura must be regarded as an outside possibility, rather than a probability.

I do feel that we are both on the same track here, but I think we must agree to disagree in respect of the nature of the pamor in the Sendai keris.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 25th June 2013 at 11:25 PM. Reason: clarification.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:38 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.