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Old 31st July 2012, 12:40 AM   #1
A.alnakkas
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Default Rhino Khanjar for comments

Hey guys,

So I finally had time to share this one. Its a nice rhino hilted Omani khanjar with a good blade. Blade was heavily rusted so cleaned it up but during the cleaning, some of the wd40 went inside the hilt and stained the rhino. Gav told me thats ok and it shouldnt damage the rhino though! :-)

How old is such a piece? interesting details in the silver work especially at the flowers etc. Certainly better work then most modern Omani stuff.
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Old 31st July 2012, 12:41 AM   #2
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More photos!
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Old 31st July 2012, 01:02 AM   #3
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Very nice Lofty. Those circles of silver pins on the back of the hilt are something I have not seen before. Will leave the expert comments for others.......................
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Old 31st July 2012, 02:13 AM   #4
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Very nice, definitely an older one.
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Old 31st July 2012, 08:51 AM   #5
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Lovely piece A.alnakkas.

I have to disagree with Gavs advice re wd40 on organics like rhino horn though.

wd40 contains harsh volatile solvents & is primarily used as a degreaser & for water displacment, so wd40 will eventualy dry out the area of horn, potentialy causing degredation of the material.

I would treat the rhino with liberal quantities of baby oil, or sesame oil {popular in the Yemen I understand.}{rubbing of the excess.} to prevent the wd40 from drying out the horn excesively. wd40 also damages leather for the same reason.

spiral

Last edited by spiral : 31st July 2012 at 10:24 AM. Reason: clarity.
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Old 31st July 2012, 01:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
Lovely piece A.alnakkas.

I have to disagree with Gavs advice re wd40 on organics like rhino horn though.

wd40 contains harsh volatile solvents & is primarily used as a degreaser & for water displacment, so wd40 will eventualy dry out the area of horn, potentialy causing degredation of the material.

I would treat the rhino with liberal quantities of baby oil, or sesame oil {popular in the Yemen I understand.}{rubbing of the excess.} to prevent the wd40 from drying out the horn excesively. wd40 also damages leather for the same reason.

spiral


Not to be taken out of context, Lofty mentioned a little WD40 went on to the horn, it wasn't a liberal soaking in WD40. It is purely superficial from my understanding and such a little misapplication will not have lasting effects.
Further treating with any substance suggested is purely personal choice.
The only oil I use for timber, leather, ivory or horn is virgin coconut oil, never a mineral oil.

If you want to see super results for before and after shots of Rhino horn conservation, drop Steve a line, I am most impressed with the changes he creates, though it might be a trade secret too ;-)

Gav
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Old 31st July 2012, 03:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Hey guys,

So I finally had time to share this one. Its a nice rhino hilted Omani khanjar with a good blade. Blade was heavily rusted so cleaned it up but during the cleaning, some of the wd40 went inside the hilt and stained the rhino. Gav told me thats ok and it shouldnt damage the rhino though! :-)

How old is such a piece? interesting details in the silver work especially at the flowers etc. Certainly better work then most modern Omani stuff.



Salaams A.alnakkas ~ That is a very nice Omani Khanjar. As always difficult to pinpoint its exact provenance but it is "Of the North" (Shimaliyah) It carries the distinctive Ibri pattern of arabesque full circle scrolling widely emulated especially around Nizwa and Rustaq as well as other regions. Omongst the rare inclusions on this Khanjar are the peculiar pins in the back of the hilt hardly ever seen. The hilt is classic Rhino. which commanded a higher price per gram than gold. (A single anterior horn from either of the two African species sufficient for only eleven hilts and the posterior horn enough for only three.) The hilt expertly adorned with several hundred silver pins adding great weight and balance to the dagger. Classic crown of the flat ended variety. Nice old woven belt...Great old blade. This is not a new item!

I would say in the 50/80 year old region with the proviso "they don't make them like that anymore.."

Coconut works on hair and is thus excellent on Rhino horn..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Afternote ~ Did anyone notice the silver pins in the head of the khanjar at the 4th and 5th photo of #1 which appear to reflect the pattern of the Rhino Horn in the end or top of the hilt? I wonder if that is the idea of hammered pins in the hilt generally as reflecting the pattern of spaghetti endings in Rhino hilts? It is certainly the case that a lot of Rhino hilts have these pins (not counting Royal Khanjars in this equation).

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 31st July 2012 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 31st July 2012, 05:17 PM   #8
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Hi Lotfy.

It's a very good Khanjar my friend. How about a shot of it with it's new friends?

Lets all be greatful that as Ibrahiim pointed out "they don't make them like that anymore"
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Old 31st July 2012, 10:27 PM   #9
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Thanks all!

Yes, the amount of wd40 was not huge (alittle actually, but it stained the rhino anyways) as I didnt apply it directly to the hilt, rather it creeped in while I was cleaning the blade :P

So coconut oil, I'll get some tommorow and apply it to the horn. But how? do I just dip it in the oil? I'd rather do it right as I feel like a total dufus for forgetting to cover the hilt and seal it.

Gene, I'll post them tommorow, need sunlight
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Old 1st August 2012, 09:20 AM   #10
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Ahhh sorry Gav, Alnakkas for bieng out of context, I assumed, that as WD 40 was bieng used to remove rust & had soaked inside the hilt causing discoleration thatit was in liberal quantities, not just a slight overspray!

Interesting Gav! Coconut oil? I must admit I have never used it, I find unperfumed baby oil excelent for horn ,bone, metal etc. {Never leather though as after a decade or so that to can promote degrading, particularily of stiching it seems..}

Perhaps the slight leak of wd40 that discoloured the rhino was carrying some of the dissolved rust within it, that would increase the staining.

I am sure Steve has his favorite mixes & techniques for brining rhino back to life, ill have to ask!

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Old 1st August 2012, 10:49 AM   #11
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Virgin coconut oil chaps, get it from your local health shops, give it a go, no smell, no bad side effects....its a solid when cold, liquid when hot.
A long time Pacific rim tribal art collector put me on to it.

Oh and good for the skin too...the broom pilot douses herself with it from head to toe each night

Gav
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Old 1st August 2012, 06:58 PM   #12
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[

Afternote ~ Did anyone notice the silver pins in the head of the khanjar at the 4th and 5th photo of #1 which appear to reflect the pattern of the Rhino Horn in the end or top of the hilt?

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 1st August 2012 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 1st August 2012, 07:14 PM   #13
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Thanks all, its interesting to know more about this piece!

Well I have some baby oil around but its scented, no good?
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Old 1st August 2012, 09:18 PM   #14
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Gav

Left out means room temperature. I bought a jar for making keris oil and within six months time it went rancid. I use Briwax which is a combination of bees wax and other waxes.
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Old 1st August 2012, 10:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Thanks all, its interesting to know more about this piece!

Well I have some baby oil around but its scented, no good?


Its better than most vegtible based oils I understand,Ive certanly used it, perfumed baby oil will have solvents of .05 % or less usualy, wd40 is 55.% percent solvents though... massive differance in the decimal point.

Perfumed is very pure,better than most, nothing is purer than unperfumed though.

Given the scenario Id nearly dunk it in any oil to hand,just in case it was to much wd40, so perfumed baby oil would seem great to me, given the circustance,but thats just me...

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Old 1st August 2012, 10:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
[

Afternote ~ Did anyone notice the silver pins in the head of the khanjar at the 4th and 5th photo of #1 which appear to reflect the pattern of the Rhino Horn in the end or top of the hilt?


Indeed Ibrahiim, as does the actual blade shape of Yemini, Omani & other Arabian Pennisula Jambiya/Khanjar ive always thought.

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Old 1st August 2012, 10:47 PM   #17
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Ok so I oiled them, didnt put much though, made sure some is sucked in though. Hope I didnt screw up
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Old 2nd August 2012, 04:13 AM   #18
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I need to work on my photoskills :P
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Old 2nd August 2012, 07:22 PM   #19
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Default The Penny Drops ... Clunk !

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Hey guys,

So I finally had time to share this one. Its a nice rhino hilted Omani khanjar with a good blade. Blade was heavily rusted so cleaned it up but during the cleaning, some of the wd40 went inside the hilt and stained the rhino. Gav told me thats ok and it shouldnt damage the rhino though! :-)

How old is such a piece? interesting details in the silver work especially at the flowers etc. Certainly better work then most modern Omani stuff.



Salaams A.alnakkas ... I have had a good look under the scope at your Omani Khanjar. Do you notice anything strange about it such as the two pieces of thin leather strips between the silver work at the throat on the higher scabbard region? Did you figure out what the pins are in the back of the scabbard?

1. Muthaabi, Ibra, Bid Bid. The Dhakiliyya. The interior of Oman. That is where this peculiar technique of leather (Gild) comes from. Pinpoint accuracy!
2. The pins in the back are actually pins in the front of the khanjar in its original form... It (the hilt) has been turned around. Thus the brain teaser... I would add to the age another 10 years putting it out in the 60 year old vintage.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 2nd August 2012, 11:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas ... I have had a good look under the scope at your Omani Khanjar. Do you notice anything strange about it such as the two pieces of thin leather strips between the silver work at the throat on the higher scabbard region? Did you figure out what the pins are in the back of the scabbard?


I havent really given it much thought :P

Quote:
1. Muthaabi, Ibra, Bid Bid. The Dhakiliyya. The interior of Oman. That is where this peculiar technique of leather (Gild) comes from. Pinpoint accuracy!


Its cloth. Wool I think. Will get pictures of the back side which has a slot for a work knife.

Quote:
2. The pins in the back are actually pins in the front of the khanjar in its original form... It (the hilt) has been turned around. Thus the brain teaser... I would add to the age another 10 years putting it out in the 60 year old vintage.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Possible, but whats your argument for that? I am personally not fussed about the age of this piece :P but I am interested in the rationale used to decide that the backside was once the front :-)
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Old 3rd August 2012, 06:38 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
I havent really given it much thought :P



Its cloth. Wool I think. Will get pictures of the back side which has a slot for a work knife.



Possible, but whats your argument for that? I am personally not fussed about the age of this piece :P but I am interested in the rationale used to decide that the backside was once the front :-)


Salaams A.alnakkas No arguement just either discussion or debate.. Brought onto the Forums hot anvil to be hammered out .. The two concentric rings of pins both at the top and bottom of the back of this hilt were for securing the large disc buttons and the few pins at the narrow part in the centre are for securing the silver ferrule arrangement...all now of course removed as the maker switched this hilt to a new Khanjar... perhaps 60 years ago which I think is why the translucency is so good. This is a switched and turned hilt.

At #1 you were asking about the age... has this now become irrelevant? Sixty years old is considerable for an Omani Khanjar and further if the original item was the same age then you have a Khanjar made from 120 years old artefacts..

The decoration on the top of the pommel is incredible.. see "The Omani Khanjar" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 see #48 where I refer to this phenomenal design as being linked to the Rhino horn natural form..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 3rd August 2012 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 3rd August 2012, 10:02 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas No arguement just either discussion or debate.. Brought onto the Forums hot anvil to be hammered out .. The two concentric rings of pins both at the top and bottom of the back of this hilt were for securing the large disc buttons and the few pins at the narrow part in the centre are for securing the silver ferrule arrangement...all now of course removed as the maker switched this hilt to a new Khanjar... perhaps 60 years ago which I think is why the translucency is so good. This is a switched and turned hilt.


argument: a reason given in proof or rebuttal; amongst other possible uses, according to Merriam webster online dictionary

Ibrahim, I have no problem with the conclusion you have given, but rather with the reasons for the conclusion which so far do not exist. Perhaps you have seen this sort of pin style used to hold the silver filigree but isnt it generally held by a much larger pin?

Unless you have other examples of such pins used to hold the filigree then I cannot see any proof given by you. Though I must say I find the turned hilt point to have some merit, but its possible that the back side is decorated that way and when it was switched its left the way it is? That ofcourse, is just a guess as this is not the first Omani item with a decorated back side. Its simply the first many have seen with such decoration

Quote:
At #1 you were asking about the age... has this now become irrelevant? Sixty years old is considerable for an Omani Khanjar and further if the original item was the same age then you have a Khanjar made from 120 years old artefacts..


I did but its better to avoid 'pinpoint' accuracy (pun intended) in dating items which do not have a date written on them. So its simple, I am not fussed with the 'precise' date and simply satisfied with early 20th century or whatever because stating whether its 80 years old or 60 years old without any reasons seems abit too much. Keep in mind that I would be really happy if this is 60 years old because thats pretty old for a khanjar, considering how many times the blade and hilt get refitted! :P

Though you deserve the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you said the age due to a particular style used 60 or 80 years ago? I know you have stated "they dont make them like these anymore" or something like that, but it was vague in the sense that it could be directed to the scabbard or the hilt, so could you clear that out? :-)

Quote:
The decoration on the top of the pommel is incredible.. see "The Omani Khanjar" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 see #48 where I refer to this phenomenal design as being linked to the Rhino horn natural form..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


I thought so aswell, but lets not give our guesses more than what they deserve. I think moving from a guess to assuming the guess as a fact is pointless and counterproductive.

Regards,

Lotfy
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Old 3rd August 2012, 01:33 PM   #23
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My Dear Bro.
I have let the wave pass ...
before coming to congratulate you for this new acquisition
I'm especially happy for you because this dagger is belong to your roots,
and is an exceptional specimen

no need to add, anything, everything was said
otherwise that ... congratulations ... مبروك أخي

+

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Old 4th August 2012, 09:51 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
argument: a reason given in proof or rebuttal; amongst other possible uses, according to Merriam webster online dictionary

Ibrahim, I have no problem with the conclusion you have given, but rather with the reasons for the conclusion which so far do not exist. Perhaps you have seen this sort of pin style used to hold the silver filigree but isnt it generally held by a much larger pin?

Unless you have other examples of such pins used to hold the filigree then I cannot see any proof given by you. Though I must say I find the turned hilt point to have some merit, but its possible that the back side is decorated that way and when it was switched its left the way it is? That ofcourse, is just a guess as this is not the first Omani item with a decorated back side. Its simply the first many have seen with such decoration



I did but its better to avoid 'pinpoint' accuracy (pun intended) in dating items which do not have a date written on them. So its simple, I am not fussed with the 'precise' date and simply satisfied with early 20th century or whatever because stating whether its 80 years old or 60 years old without any reasons seems abit too much. Keep in mind that I would be really happy if this is 60 years old because thats pretty old for a khanjar, considering how many times the blade and hilt get refitted! :P

Though you deserve the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you said the age due to a particular style used 60 or 80 years ago? I know you have stated "they dont make them like these anymore" or something like that, but it was vague in the sense that it could be directed to the scabbard or the hilt, so could you clear that out? :-)



I thought so aswell, but lets not give our guesses more than what they deserve. I think moving from a guess to assuming the guess as a fact is pointless and counterproductive.

Regards,

Lotfy



Salaams A.alnakkas ~ You are of course right to request proper researched proof, alas, this weapon came out of the dark ages here... before 1970.
The indicators for the leather strips are there...(they are peculiar to that specific region only) as in my last e mail.

On age ~ I always try and get closer with the estimate so rather than late or early 20th C. I have given what I believe is a fair estimate.... adding 10 years because of what I consider is a switched hilt ... and not ignoring the potential of that hilt coming from an equally old dagger.

This family has over 100 years of experience and when I am uncertain I go ask... Then when there is further uncertainty I hit the workshops...My entire team therefor get a crack at this. I think theres about 250 years experience altogether..The originator of the Khanjar died many years ago so for sure they dont make them like that anymore. It may contain pin styles long forgotten.

What is very exceptional is the close pin design in the pommel head. I have not seen that before. To me it is a very important discovery. It mirrors the design of Rhino( I mean in its spaghetti end formation or what I perceive as octagonal end form of its threads..seen in your same photo at #1 picture 5)...and is I believe vital to our understanding of that animals bearing on Omani Khanjar design.( My hypothesis is added at the end)

Nice photo that one by the way as it gives the perfect shot of Rhino Horn on an Omani dagger i.e. translucent as opposed to the oily dark type often seen on Yemeni daggers. However the pin design is a show stopper... #1 picture 5.

Back to the back~ so to speak. If I am right about the age of the dagger... and roughly about right on the age of the previous one ~ That means I am considering the work style from over 100 years ago based on the pins set in two concentric rings at the top and base of the back of the hilt which I point to as being switched from another Khanjar etc. I have to say that delving back so far into the dark ages really does require careful thought, much logic and a fair degree of working without a safety net...however nothing here is written in stone and I often find myself backtracking after I make an error or a correction to see how best to adjust for damage control...End of excuses. Over to the workshops boys...
They say:

"Hilt turned. These are old pins holding the previous decoration to the horn. This is Rhino so would be re-used. Excellent work ... Pommel top highly exceptional. Can't figure out what happened to the front at the top of the TEE... which appears to be a silver plate instead of pins... maybe owing to what was there before when it was the reverse"

So good enough? There isn't any "proof" except from reverse engineering the hilt and adding the blend of very considerable experience ~ and bearing in mind not just the timeframe but the region. The proof, in fact, is being written as we develop the Forum... and as you have seen much of the work conducted on Omani ethnographic weapons is groundbreaking...If it was available in a book I would say so; if I so saw!

Hypothesis..I put it to Forum that the design on the pommel top mirrors Rhino pattern (#1 picture 5.) and further, that the apparent curve in the scabbard is in recognition of the Rhino. ( also discussed at "The Omani Khanjar") http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 at # 50

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 5th August 2012 at 08:50 AM. Reason: reworked text
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Old 3rd August 2012, 06:42 AM   #25
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