Kaskara with Arabic "seal" stamp

stephen wood · 24th October 2011, 07:31 PM

This is something of a first: a kaskara with a Arabic "seal" stamped on both sides of the blade.

It's quite an old piece - a heavy, stiff, trade blade that has seen a lot of use - it has a lot of old, deep scratches in the fuller. It has a forged fuller from the hilt to about a third down the blade and has a well-made iron crossguard with an X. All the leather has gone and the scabbard is not original. The missing grip binding allows an insight into the hit-and-miss nature of lining up the holes in the grip and the tang. The blade is very tight in the hilt - cloth padding is visible.

The hexagonal stamped marking is the same on both sides: unfortunately it has not been done evenly but fortunately the whole may be read from the two parts. I have no idea what its says or even if I have shown it the right way up. Perhaps there is a date.

As always your comments are most welcome.

Norman McCormick · 25th October 2011, 06:57 PM

Hi Stephen,
One has to wonder if someone has gone to the time and trouble to manufacture a stamp where are the other items bearing the same indents? A stamp is generally made to facilitate multiple strikings but whether a makers mark, sign of quality or an acceptance mark we will only know when a translation comes forth. Nice blade.

Regards,
Norman.

A.alnakkas · 25th October 2011, 07:18 PM

Very nice. Iain, do you think this is a local blade or a european one stamped with maybe an armory stamp? the stamp reminds me of indian/afghani ones.

It says Dawud Ali, btw.

Iain · 25th October 2011, 07:42 PM

Someone call me?

Honestly Stephen has a lot more experience with kaskara than I do, so if he says it's a European trade blade I believe him. The style of cross guard certainly matches with an old sword.

Wood is in surprisingly good shape.

About the stamp, I was half hoping the translation would give a place rather than a name. The name I assume has nothing to give a regional clue? As I understand it Dawud is the Arabic version of David, so probably quite common, Ali of course is a very common name as well in the Sudan.

So, I don't think it's an armoury stamp. I'm wondering if some enterprising merchant stamped a batch of blades he imported or bought up? Would be a decent marketing trick perhaps, as in "I have a Dawud Ali blade and it works great! You should go get one as well!".

That's about the only thing I can think of. As Norman points out, I really doubt this was a one off.

Cheers,

Iain

A.alnakkas · 25th October 2011, 08:36 PM

Oh haha, sorry I somehow thought you have made this topic!

Valid opinion, I'd wait for Stephen's assessment. A very interesting piece non the less!

stephen wood · 25th October 2011, 11:41 PM

...thank you for your interest in this one.

Did I post them upside down? I can't find a Sultan of Darfur or a King of Sennar with that name - the merchant idea is quite plausible. It does seem to be a first in that while engraved or etched inscriptions abound, I have never come across an Arabic stamp on one of these swords. Is it a tughra?

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2011, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Very nice. Iain, do you think this is a local blade or a european one stamped with maybe an armory stamp? the stamp reminds me of indian/afghani ones.

It says Dawud Ali, btw.

You have presented an interesting observation here which I missed entirely, the stamp is very much like those seen on Indian/Afghani blades though these cartouches are typically in the upper part of the blade. It does seem that is certain instances blades which were likely from Indian trade have been found in kaskaras (i.e. backsword blades).
It is an interesting consideration that this could be a stamp from Indian regions which may have found its way to an intermediary involved in Red Sea trade and perhaps was applied in that medium.

Iain, I think this presents well regarding your merchant suggestion. In the trade centers where blades were received from arriving ships and dispersed to caravans and other merchants this seems very plausible.

Iain · 1st November 2011, 12:05 PM

Hi Jim,

The more I think about it, the less likely I think this was a local Sudanese application.

If we look at why and how local marks were applied it was usually for talismanic reasons or to imply European levels of quality.

As the name on this stamp does not seem to be a known local ruler or religious figure, I think we can rule out any such properties. Additionally names and religious inscriptions tended to be etched or carved in, not stamped.

I agree with A. Alnakkas that there is a resemblance to armoury stamps from India. I lack the expertise to know if this example is in that style or not though? Perhaps one of the Indian experts can weigh in on the issue?

All in all an intriguing sword, I love these odd pieces that do not confirm to the textbook examples!

Cheers,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2011, 11:25 PM

Thanks very much Iain, perhaps Stephen might bring in his expertise to help with these thoughts. Seems like the posting over on the other forum is at a bit of a standstill as well.
It seems like most of the Indian/Afghan stamps were either in square or circular cartouche, and the ones I have seen were in Urdu..but the configuration of the characters in this seem quite similar.

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th October 2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

This is something of a first: a kaskara with a Arabic "seal" stamped on both sides of the blade.

It's quite an old piece - a heavy, stiff, trade blade that has seen a lot of use - it has a lot of old, deep scratches in the fuller. It has a forged fuller from the hilt to about a third down the blade and has a well-made iron crossguard with an X. All the leather has gone and the scabbard is not original. The missing grip binding allows an insight into the hit-and-miss nature of lining up the holes in the grip and the tang. The blade is very tight in the hilt - cloth padding is visible.

The hexagonal stamped marking is the same on both sides: unfortunately it has not been done evenly but fortunately the whole may be read from the two parts. I have no idea what its says or even if I have shown it the right way up. Perhaps there is a date.

As always your comments are most welcome.

Salaams, Is there any Arabic stamped on the blade... I see something about one foot down the fuller? The stamp is upside down but no problem it is perfectly translated by A.alnakkas. I see no date. Ibrahiim.

Yesterday 10:18 PM

Jim McDougall · 27th October 2011, 05:50 AM

While it is of course difficult to accurately assess a blade in kaskaras asto being European or native by photos rather than actual handling, it does seem this one reflects possibly being a European trade blade. The fuller profile compares to examples described and illustrated in line drawings in Reed (1987, plate LII, p.168) and Briggs (1965, T8, p.52). Apparantly these each have running wolf on one side and the cross and orb on the other. It is suggested these are German 17th century and a reference to Wallace A524 is cited by Briggs.
While these authors do not unequivocably claim these blades are European, they imply they probably are, and note that native makers did imitate these markings among many others.

The stamp is most interesting and certainly unusual for a kaskara blade, the absence of European markings or copies in the fullers notwithstanding. It is known that stamps with Arabic characters en cartouche were used in Algeria on the blade of a nimcha (Briggs, p.78, plate XVII, b) in one example and of course likely others. The use of stamps by native armourers there and in many of the centers seems to have existed from earlier times and of course into modern times. As these stamps became worn the character of the devices being stamped of course less distinctive, and the depth decreased with quality of definition. In some cases of courses, simple chiseled marks are used, but this rather crude definition is sometimes on old European blades as well, especially with the running wolf.

I think Iains idea is well placed that in one location an industrious trader may have stamped this and blades received by him with a mark, which like most such devices would likely be perceived as talismanic and imbuing the blade with power. In the Reed article, (op.cit. plate LII) he notes that the individual he was interviewing (in 1987) indicated the blade was 'before Kasalla'....that is, a very old blade. Kasalla, as described in Ed Hunley's excellent article , became the heart of modern edged weapons production in the Sudan. These old blades, many indeed quite early European trade blades, were refurbished countless times as they changed hands or were handed down, much as this example clearly exhibits.

24th October 2011, 07:31 PM	#1
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Kaskara with Arabic "seal" stamp This is something of a first: a kaskara with a Arabic "seal" stamped on both sides of the blade. It's quite an old piece - a heavy, stiff, trade blade that has seen a lot of use - it has a lot of old, deep scratches in the fuller. It has a forged fuller from the hilt to about a third down the blade and has a well-made iron crossguard with an X. All the leather has gone and the scabbard is not original. The missing grip binding allows an insight into the hit-and-miss nature of lining up the holes in the grip and the tang. The blade is very tight in the hilt - cloth padding is visible. The hexagonal stamped marking is the same on both sides: unfortunately it has not been done evenly but fortunately the whole may be read from the two parts. I have no idea what its says or even if I have shown it the right way up. Perhaps there is a date. As always your comments are most welcome. Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 24th October 2011 at 09:32 PM.

25th October 2011, 06:57 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi Stephen, One has to wonder if someone has gone to the time and trouble to manufacture a stamp where are the other items bearing the same indents? A stamp is generally made to facilitate multiple strikings but whether a makers mark, sign of quality or an acceptance mark we will only know when a translation comes forth. Nice blade. Regards, Norman.

25th October 2011, 07:18 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,339	Very nice. Iain, do you think this is a local blade or a european one stamped with maybe an armory stamp? the stamp reminds me of indian/afghani ones. It says Dawud Ali, btw.

25th October 2011, 07:42 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,682	Someone call me? Honestly Stephen has a lot more experience with kaskara than I do, so if he says it's a European trade blade I believe him. The style of cross guard certainly matches with an old sword. Wood is in surprisingly good shape. About the stamp, I was half hoping the translation would give a place rather than a name. The name I assume has nothing to give a regional clue? As I understand it Dawud is the Arabic version of David, so probably quite common, Ali of course is a very common name as well in the Sudan. So, I don't think it's an armoury stamp. I'm wondering if some enterprising merchant stamped a batch of blades he imported or bought up? Would be a decent marketing trick perhaps, as in "I have a Dawud Ali blade and it works great! You should go get one as well!". That's about the only thing I can think of. As Norman points out, I really doubt this was a one off. Cheers, Iain

25th October 2011, 08:36 PM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,339	Oh haha, sorry I somehow thought you have made this topic! Valid opinion, I'd wait for Stephen's assessment. A very interesting piece non the less!

25th October 2011, 11:41 PM	#6
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...thank you for your interest in this one. Did I post them upside down? I can't find a Sultan of Darfur or a King of Sennar with that name - the merchant idea is quite plausible. It does seem to be a first in that while engraved or etched inscriptions abound, I have never come across an Arabic stamp on one of these swords. Is it a tughra?

1st November 2011, 12:05 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,682	Hi Jim, The more I think about it, the less likely I think this was a local Sudanese application. If we look at why and how local marks were applied it was usually for talismanic reasons or to imply European levels of quality. As the name on this stamp does not seem to be a known local ruler or religious figure, I think we can rule out any such properties. Additionally names and religious inscriptions tended to be etched or carved in, not stamped. I agree with A. Alnakkas that there is a resemblance to armoury stamps from India. I lack the expertise to know if this example is in that style or not though? Perhaps one of the Indian experts can weigh in on the issue? All in all an intriguing sword, I love these odd pieces that do not confirm to the textbook examples! Cheers, Iain

1st November 2011, 11:25 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Thanks very much Iain, perhaps Stephen might bring in his expertise to help with these thoughts. Seems like the posting over on the other forum is at a bit of a standstill as well. It seems like most of the Indian/Afghan stamps were either in square or circular cartouche, and the ones I have seen were in Urdu..but the configuration of the characters in this seem quite similar. All the best, Jim

27th October 2011, 05:50 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	While it is of course difficult to accurately assess a blade in kaskaras asto being European or native by photos rather than actual handling, it does seem this one reflects possibly being a European trade blade. The fuller profile compares to examples described and illustrated in line drawings in Reed (1987, plate LII, p.168) and Briggs (1965, T8, p.52). Apparantly these each have running wolf on one side and the cross and orb on the other. It is suggested these are German 17th century and a reference to Wallace A524 is cited by Briggs. While these authors do not unequivocably claim these blades are European, they imply they probably are, and note that native makers did imitate these markings among many others. The stamp is most interesting and certainly unusual for a kaskara blade, the absence of European markings or copies in the fullers notwithstanding. It is known that stamps with Arabic characters en cartouche were used in Algeria on the blade of a nimcha (Briggs, p.78, plate XVII, b) in one example and of course likely others. The use of stamps by native armourers there and in many of the centers seems to have existed from earlier times and of course into modern times. As these stamps became worn the character of the devices being stamped of course less distinctive, and the depth decreased with quality of definition. In some cases of courses, simple chiseled marks are used, but this rather crude definition is sometimes on old European blades as well, especially with the running wolf. I think Iains idea is well placed that in one location an industrious trader may have stamped this and blades received by him with a mark, which like most such devices would likely be perceived as talismanic and imbuing the blade with power. In the Reed article, (op.cit. plate LII) he notes that the individual he was interviewing (in 1987) indicated the blade was 'before Kasalla'....that is, a very old blade. Kasalla, as described in Ed Hunley's excellent article , became the heart of modern edged weapons production in the Sudan. These old blades, many indeed quite early European trade blades, were refurbished countless times as they changed hands or were handed down, much as this example clearly exhibits.