Finally worth getting at 5am

dooly · 30th May 2011, 11:06 AM

Hi all .. new to this form .. I collect and restore old English shotguns and collect old bottles and pottery .. so i set off on my usual run round the car boot sales and the last thing on my mind as i wandered around with not a item found at 6am .. then i spotted a dealer with what seamed like a "modern" Flint lock pistol screwed to a piece of floor board .. he said to the lady it was a modern copy which had been made to look old and was not worth here asking price .. when she would not budge on the price he put it back under the table .. i then picked it up and had a good look at it and it just felt right .. so a quick haggle and it was mine .. it was in a very bad state but once i had the board off it looked to me like it could date from 1840-50s if it was English .. but it was covered in an "Islamic" text .. so still not sure .. so i was wondering if someone hear can help me with the translation .. date .. and what it should look like as i am now going to strip and rebuild it .. would it be Blued or browned at this period

all the best and thanks .. more pictures to follow off the restoration project

Atlantia · 30th May 2011, 12:39 PM

Fantastic! What a thing to find. I was just saying in the display thread about the terrible things people used to do to 'display' old weapons.
welcome to the forums BTW.
Just concertrate on the woodwork. Leave the metal with the nice aged look that it's got (IMHO).

Best
Gene

A.alnakkas · 30th May 2011, 12:45 PM

Such a beauty, congratulations. Welcome to the forum :-)

Post some pictures of the inscription and I think we'll get it translated soon enough.

dooly · 30th May 2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Such a beauty, congratulations. Welcome to the forum :-)

Post some pictures of the inscription and I think we'll get it translated soon enough.

Thanks for the warm welcome

i have attached pictures of the text .. hope you can help

dooly · 30th May 2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Fantastic! What a thing to find. I was just saying in the display thread about the terrible things people used to do to 'display' old weapons.
welcome to the forums BTW.
Just concertrate on the woodwork. Leave the metal with the nice aged look that it's got (IMHO).

Best
Gene

Whoops sorry .. had to be done when i saw the state of it inside ..

check out the state of the wood when i opened her up

dooly · 30th May 2011, 01:14 PM

More "yuck" photos

Atlantia · 30th May 2011, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dooly

Whoops sorry .. had to be done when i saw the state of it inside ..

check out the state of the wood when i opened her up

Hi Dooly

I know the damage is mostly modern, but often we see repairs and filled areas on these 'ethnic' guns. I would say that you have either the option of replacing the woodwork, or repairing it with infill and replaced areas.
Whats your plan?
Best
Gene

dooly · 30th May 2011, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dooly

I know the damage is mostly modern, but often we see repairs and filled areas on these 'ethnic' guns. I would say that you have either the option of replacing the woodwork, or repairing it with infill and replaced areas.
Whats your plan?
Best
Gene

Hi .. I do restore my guns .. but i try to be sensitive And the wood work on this one could not be saved .. almost fell to bits in my hands.

I have attached a couple of pictures of a early hammer gun which was found in a farmers shed a few weeks ago .. totally rusted solid and the stock was snapped and rotten .. this is where i am at with it at the moment .. i have decided to "rainbow" the metal on this one and the hammers will be browned .. the stock is in the oversize stage and needs lightning once all the metal work has been fitted .. the wood is steamed beach and will be stained the the correct color once completed .. Luckily the Farmer had stuffed the barrels with oily rags before dumping it in the shed and the barrels are still in proof so hopefully this season it may bag a bird or two for the pot

kahnjar1 · 31st May 2011, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dooly

Hi .. I do restore my guns .. but i try to be sensitive And the wood work on this one could not be saved .. almost fell to bits in my hands.

I have attached a couple of pictures of a early hammer gun which was found in a farmers shed a few weeks ago .. totally rusted solid and the stock was snapped and rotten .. this is where i am at with it at the moment .. i have decided to "rainbow" the metal on this one and the hammers will be browned .. the stock is in the oversize stage and needs lightning once all the metal work has been fitted .. the wood is steamed beach and will be stained the the correct color once completed .. Luckily the Farmer had stuffed the barrels with oily rags before dumping it in the shed and the barrels are still in proof so hopefully this season it may bag a bird or two for the pot

IMHO get rid of the "rainbow". Obviously done with heat. English locks of this age were not as far as I am aware "case coloured", so need to be browned to match the hammers. Similarly all other metal should be browned. Vintage looks about 1880.

dooly · 30th May 2011, 03:11 PM

Now stripped and initial dip done

dooly · 30th May 2011, 06:57 PM

Well all done bar the barrel .. looks like the lettering was silvered or something .. will think about what to do with it ..

all barricaded now just let the oil soak in and next the stock .. still need to work out if i should make it with a ramrod holder .. what do you think

dooly · 31st May 2011, 07:51 PM

Hear you go .. a couple of shots of the hand bluing .. I think another 4 or so coats and it will be ready to buff it up

the second is of one of the flints i have found field walking ..

all the best

rickystl · 31st May 2011, 08:31 PM

Very cool !!! That barrel is beautiful. Thanks for the pic.

Jim McDougall · 1st June 2011, 05:03 AM

Dooly and Ricky, you're very welcome, and it was truly my pleasure to learn from this example and share what I found. That really is was this forum is all about and I really appreciate you guys' input.

The arrowheads topic is most interesting but there are sincere concerns about compromising archaeological sites and potentially important finds without proper protocol. We are interesting in weaponry from all times and thier history as long as these perameters are observed.

Again, its really great what you guys are doing with these old guns! and please keep us posted with progress.

All the very best,
Jim

dooly · 1st June 2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Dooly and Ricky, you're very welcome, and it was truly my pleasure to learn from this example and share what I found. That really is was this forum is all about and I really appreciate you guys' input.

The arrowheads topic is most interesting but there are sincere concerns about compromising archaeological sites and potentially important finds without proper protocol. We are interesting in weaponry from all times and thier history as long as these perameters are observed.

Again, its really great what you guys are doing with these old guns! and please keep us posted with progress.

All the very best,
Jim

Hi Jim .. just a note on the arrow heads and tools i find .. hear in Northumberland .. all my finds are handed over to the finds leasion officer at the Hancock museum in Newcastle who records the site of the find (my metal ones as well) on a national data base .. so far i have found 9 unrecorded sites of neolithic activity and 6 Roman sites .. there is very little information from this high up in Northumberland and Rob is very happy when he sees stuff from up hear .. .. I have some videos on youtube if anyone is interested under doolybottleking .. why not have a lookin some time ..
PS all my digging and detecting is with the landowners permission !!!

Now back to the gun .. well my timber man did not let me down .. I have attached a couple of pictures of the bit (1 meter) of Cameroon Sapele i have chosen for the gun .. (the timber is FAS registered). I think this is as close as i can get to a appropriate re stocking timber for this gun ..

link to the tree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapele

Now the next hard bit .. pick the bit to cut out the new stock out .. !!!

rickystl · 1st June 2011, 07:54 PM

Question is what would they have used in the country the gun was used, Lead / Leather / felt ??

Lead for the jaws was usually issued to European and American military troops. But not exclusively. I would think that leather and fabric (maybe thick felt) would be more plentiful in that part of the World. But I'm only guessing. One of the questions that comes up with Middle Eastern flintlock type guns is why the mainsprings are so strong compared to their European counterparts. Their are a couple therories. But the one that makes most sense to me is that the "quality" of flint in that Region was simply not as good as English black or French amber flint.

30th May 2011, 11:06 AM	#1
dooly Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 15	Finally worth getting up at 5am Flintlock pistol Hi all .. new to this form .. I collect and restore old English shotguns and collect old bottles and pottery .. so i set off on my usual run round the car boot sales and the last thing on my mind as i wandered around with not a item found at 6am .. then i spotted a dealer with what seamed like a "modern" Flint lock pistol screwed to a piece of floor board .. he said to the lady it was a modern copy which had been made to look old and was not worth here asking price .. when she would not budge on the price he put it back under the table .. i then picked it up and had a good look at it and it just felt right .. so a quick haggle and it was mine .. it was in a very bad state but once i had the board off it looked to me like it could date from 1840-50s if it was English .. but it was covered in an "Islamic" text .. so still not sure .. so i was wondering if someone hear can help me with the translation .. date .. and what it should look like as i am now going to strip and rebuild it .. would it be Blued or browned at this period all the best and thanks .. more pictures to follow off the restoration project Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 31st May 2011 at 02:54 PM. Reason: add description for reference

30th May 2011, 01:14 PM	#6
dooly Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 15	More "yuck" photos Attached Images

30th May 2011, 03:11 PM	#10
dooly Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 15	Now stripped and initial dip done Attached Images

30th May 2011, 06:57 PM	#11
dooly Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 15	Well all done bar the barrel .. looks like the lettering was silvered or something .. will think about what to do with it .. all barricaded now just let the oil soak in and next the stock .. still need to work out if i should make it with a ramrod holder .. what do you think Attached Images

31st May 2011, 07:51 PM	#12
dooly Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 15	Hear you go .. a couple of shots of the hand bluing .. I think another 4 or so coats and it will be ready to buff it up the second is of one of the flints i have found field walking .. all the best Attached Images

30th May 2011, 12:39 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Fantastic! What a thing to find. I was just saying in the display thread about the terrible things people used to do to 'display' old weapons. welcome to the forums BTW. Just concertrate on the woodwork. Leave the metal with the nice aged look that it's got (IMHO). Best Gene

30th May 2011, 12:45 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,339	Such a beauty, congratulations. Welcome to the forum :-) Post some pictures of the inscription and I think we'll get it translated soon enough.

31st May 2011, 08:31 PM	#13
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Very cool !!! That barrel is beautiful. Thanks for the pic.

1st June 2011, 05:03 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Dooly and Ricky, you're very welcome, and it was truly my pleasure to learn from this example and share what I found. That really is was this forum is all about and I really appreciate you guys' input. The arrowheads topic is most interesting but there are sincere concerns about compromising archaeological sites and potentially important finds without proper protocol. We are interesting in weaponry from all times and thier history as long as these perameters are observed. Again, its really great what you guys are doing with these old guns! and please keep us posted with progress. All the very best, Jim

1st June 2011, 07:54 PM	#16
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Question is what would they have used in the country the gun was used, Lead / Leather / felt ?? Lead for the jaws was usually issued to European and American military troops. But not exclusively. I would think that leather and fabric (maybe thick felt) would be more plentiful in that part of the World. But I'm only guessing. One of the questions that comes up with Middle Eastern flintlock type guns is why the mainsprings are so strong compared to their European counterparts. Their are a couple therories. But the one that makes most sense to me is that the "quality" of flint in that Region was simply not as good as English black or French amber flint.