Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 6th February 2011, 10:36 PM   #1
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 348
Send a message via ICQ to Spiridonov
Default Iron ramrod in xv century

There are two images from xv century manuscripts which make us to think that some ramrods were made from iron. This image are from manuscript of Edward IV and image from Berner Chronik of 1483. The first detail which indicate the material of ramrods is the color. The second details is the thin hook in the tip of the one of this ramrods. It is impossible to make this hook from wood. Such thin hook surely would be broken if it were made of wood. So i think that it was made of iron. By the way I think that hook was needed for hanging to belt in time of shooting or hanging to nail in the arsenal room.
Else we have interesting inventor of Lille 1458 year:
Quote:
"...100 autres couleuvrines de bronze, aussi avec manches en bois, ayant clef comme arbalète, accompagnées de 99 torcays (carquois), pourvu chacun d'un bluchotois (petite mesure)en fer blanc pour doser la charge de poudre, d'un moule en pierre blanche pour fondre les plommets et d'une estampe de fer (chargeoir) pour mettre la poudre..."

I think that "estampe de fer" may be a iron ramrod. But it's only assumption. We can't say exactly...
Attached Images
  
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th February 2011, 09:46 PM   #2
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,346
Default

Hi Alexander,

Probably ramrods in this period were not only made of iron.
Following the Lille inventory, we can find quotations referring payment to smiths for making iron ramrods but also inventories of ramrods made of ash wood (frêne).

... a Jehan Maistre pour une livre d'estaing et ung quartaron de plomb que print Adam Godard pour souder les cornetz de fer blanc a qu'on l'on charge les colovrines et espingardes
(…)

... a Noé le clotrier pour la ferreure de IIc bastons pour charger les colovrines et serpentines ...

Manuscrit carton B 3518,Archives dép. du Nord :

"...105 feuilles de fer à faire chargeoirs, 150 sacs de cuir de diverses sortes à mettre poudre pour les canonniers..."
(1472)


Concernant les chargeoirs :
"...1200 bâtons de frêne à faire chargeoirs pour les bâtons à poudre (les couleuvrines)..."
(inventaire bourguignon de 1474, Archives départementales du Nord, B.3519)

.
Attached Images
    
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2011, 07:17 PM   #3
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 348
Send a message via ICQ to Spiridonov
Default

My assumption that probably hook was needed for hanging on belt in time of shooting have got absolutely strong proof. The proof is the miniature of Sforza from Wallace Collection. We can see two schioppettieri(s) who use ramrods with hook. One of them hang his ramrod on belt in time of ignition moment.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Spiridonov : 23rd February 2011 at 07:33 PM.
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2011, 09:01 PM   #4
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 348
Send a message via ICQ to Spiridonov
Default

else ramrod with hook (about 1500 year)
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Spiridonov : 24th February 2011 at 11:07 AM.
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2011, 09:02 PM   #5
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Absolutely great research, Alexander!


I would never have generally ruled out the early existence of iron ramrods for heavier pieces, and I am glad to be able and prove your discovered contemporary artwork by two really existing wrought iron crudely sighted haquebut barrels, both possibly Nuremberg made, about 1500-10, ans struck with a maker's mark, a shield with some pellets, the swiveling touch hole cover of one missing, the latter barrel heavily damaged and broken in two in the middle, and both retaining their iron ramrods characteristically bent outside the muzzles in order to prevent them from going in too far - just the way Alexander found them illustrated!

Both are preserved in the Museum of a small Northern Bavaria country town named Wunsiedel, where I took photos of them amost 30 years ago!

As 'Nando pointed out, I would however like to reemphasize the fact that iron ramrods were the exemption to the rule until the early 18th century. The Landeszeughaus Graz preserved hundreds of separate thick wooden ramrods mounted with iron finials threaded for screwing in cleaining tools for their mid 16th c. wall guns (Doppenhaken), and the huge 35 kilograms of weight Nuremberg bronze Doppelhaken of ca. 1520 in my collection (posted here earlier) also retains its original fir wood ramrod (repaired in places), its iron finial retaining its original cleaning tool.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
           
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2011, 01:22 PM   #6
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 348
Send a message via ICQ to Spiridonov
Default

Hello, Michael! Thank You for your comment and this beautifull photos! I think that hooks of ramrods from your photos has slightly straightened (the hooks are not full but I thinks that it was full). And else I think that it is not for cleaning. It is absolutly clear becaurse this hooks are much bigger than the calibre.
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2011, 08:48 AM   #7
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi Alexander,

Probably ramrods in this period were not only made of iron.
Following the Lille inventory, we can find quotations referring payment to smiths for making iron ramrods but also inventories of ramrods made of ash wood (frêne)



Hi 'Nando,

Fully agreed: ash wood ramrods with iron finials threaded for cleaning tools doubtlessly were, as I have stated several times before, and can proove not only by various original guns in my collection but by another thousands in old European arsenal collections, the usual loading tools of 'military' firearms from the earliest times (ca. 1320) up to the early 18th century. Thank you so much for quoting all those sources, my friend - I must admit you're doing far better than I when it comes to written sources!

We should, however, not by any means underestimate the importance of our friend Alexander's discovery of iron ramrods used togther with heavier pieces and proven by both contemporary illustrations and my photos of original haquebut barrels!

Best,
Michl
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:19 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.