Turkish knife

Freddy · 17th November 2005, 06:58 PM

This probably isn't the place to discuss this dagger, but I would like to show it anyway. I found it on ebay Belgium last week and it was cheap

I was a bit intrigued with the blade of this knife. It seemed like it was made from some kind of broken sword or bayonet blade. The handle and sheath are made from copper.

When I got it I was surprised how well it was made. The seller told me that it was some kind of trench dagger. The knife fits the sheath very well. When you turn it over, it will not fall out of the sheath. The hand guard (or what's it called ?) is also made from copper.
On one side of the sheath a ring is attached, probably to fasten the weapon onto a belt.

Total length : 28 cm.

Look at the pics. Any comment ?

Tim Simmons · 17th November 2005, 08:54 PM

That certainly looks like a trench knife made from a bayonet. Looks great and I bet you would have to work very hard to get another one. I am not really a reader of WW1 history but I am unaware of Turkish trenches other than Gallipoli/Dardinelles as far as I know the other Ottoman fronts were on open land. A nice buy. Tim

Rich · 17th November 2005, 09:09 PM

I would agree, trench "art". I find the iconography of the cresent and six
pointed star (star of David ???) an interesting juxtaposition, if that's what
they are.

Rich S

erlikhan · 17th November 2005, 10:13 PM

Never have seen something like this. I dont have knowledge about bayonets enough to identify the models of the spare parts, it can be a trench knife but..even if I ignore the Chinese?? looking strange guard (it is circular,not?)which is totally unrelated to Turkish, the existence of 6 pointed star is a real problem. 6 p star has been used in a different form as something magical, but never as a national symbol as far as i know. The flag was 8 pointed in early times, and 5 pointed in the last centuries with nuances in the design. No Turk or any other Moslem around here would think of changing the star with a 6 pointed one when creating a hand made item in 19 or 20th centuries when this item was crafted. Too absurd. I think this item is not long ago created to sell or even if it is old, the crescent -star is mounted to give the item an identity and to increase price later by someone whose history knowledge is not perfect.

ariel · 18th November 2005, 01:06 AM

Erlikhan,
Very astute observation!
It looks to me that the blade is a tip of a saber (Bayonets are mostly straight, this blade is curved. Yes, I know some bayos are curved but I am talking probabilities here), while the scabbard and the handle were made out of the original scabbard.There are even traces of soldering on both. The decorations were added as an afterthought.
In short, somebody took an old and broken saber and made this dagger. May be trench art, may be bored home-grown Assadullah. The bottom line, this thing can do the job!

TVV · 18th November 2005, 01:57 AM

Sword is possible, but bayonet is not less likely. If you take a close look at the scabbard mouth of this piece, it looks like the brass mouth of a bayonet scabbard: you know, the leather bayonet scabbards with brass mountings. And if the trench art theory is correct, the rest could have been made from a brass shell. The crescent and the star appear inconsistent with the rest of the knife, and I think Erlikhan is right in believing that someone added them later in an attempt to enhance the value of the piece, which is an all too common phenomenon with unknowledgeable traders of militaria. Of course, we will never really know who made this knife and for what purpose, but to me at least it seems well suited to be a trench dagger.

TVV · 17th November 2005, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

That certainly looks like a trench knife made from a bayonet. Looks great and I bet you would have to work very hard to get another one. I am not really a reader of WW1 history but I am unaware of Turkish trenches other than Gallipoli/Dardinelles as far as I know the other Ottoman fronts were on open land. A nice buy. Tim

There were Turkish Trenches in Balkan War, even before WW1, and then during WW1 there were Ottoman troops in Romania...
Perhaps identifying the bayonet thatw as converted to the knife will provide more clues? I wonder what Erlikhan would have to say about this one, but to me it looks as the tip of a yataghan shaped bayonet, perhaps a Peabody-Martini one?

Tim Simmons · 18th November 2005, 05:52 PM

I have just read they did and with distinction as all did in that terrible war. Tim

erlikhan · 18th November 2005, 07:10 PM

Well I think a Moroccan can best estimate if it is their trench or not. I dont know if they have ever had use of such a combo design of crescent and star in therir traditions. What I feel from the design, somebody has tried to imitate an Ottoman identity as far as their knowledge and visual memory let them.

Miyamoto · 19th November 2005, 10:57 AM

Causcasian front?

Tim Simmons · 19th November 2005, 11:37 AM

Yes I think you might have it, look here,
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...offensive.aspx

Freddy · 19th November 2005, 01:47 PM

Miyamoto, where did you find this pic ?

ariel · 19th November 2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miyamoto

Causcasian front?

Beware!
This item is still active on e-bay and the fiersome Moderators are wide awake.

For a similar mistake I have been banned for 10 days.
Let's not discuss this shashka for a while.

erlikhan · 19th November 2005, 09:15 PM

Rivkin, 6 pointed star was always used by Trabzon or any other town in the Ottoman empire and other non Ottomanic Turks or perhaps other Moslems, as a talismanic symbol to bring good luck and fortune and perhaps even didnt decrease till the end of 19th c. The picture you attached is in that manner. 6 pointed star without a crescent. But what would surprize me only is to see it inside a crescent. I have seen crescent and 8 pointed star in Azeri kindjals(and their flag is still 8 p. ), and 5 p. in some others, but not a 6 pointed. So you say, you have seen a lot of shashkas with exactly that design - 6 p. star inside a crescent-, right? By Kabardins. But not other Circassians..Interesting info.
I guess you want to mean Karaims by "Jew like Moslems" .They are Turk in race and language and Jew in religion,whose population were quite large in Ukraine and Caucassia before WW2 German occupation, but very little now. I know them as merchants,and dont think they would have troops, militaristic symbols and productions. Could they have combined 6 p. star and the crescent to symbolize their special identity??And Uzbek troops with the same symbol? I would like to see if any picture is available.
regards

Tim Simmons · 20th November 2005, 09:11 PM

Does this reflect on to the "trench art" knife in question? I have been reading off the net that the eastern front was more open because of the distances involved. I personally think this is a product of Moroccan troops. Tim

17th November 2005, 06:58 PM	#1
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Turkish knife This probably isn't the place to discuss this dagger, but I would like to show it anyway. I found it on ebay Belgium last week and it was cheap I was a bit intrigued with the blade of this knife. It seemed like it was made from some kind of broken sword or bayonet blade. The handle and sheath are made from copper. When I got it I was surprised how well it was made. The seller told me that it was some kind of trench dagger. The knife fits the sheath very well. When you turn it over, it will not fall out of the sheath. The hand guard (or what's it called ?) is also made from copper. On one side of the sheath a ring is attached, probably to fasten the weapon onto a belt. Total length : 28 cm. Look at the pics. Any comment ?

19th November 2005, 10:57 AM	#10
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Causcasian front? Last edited by Andrew; 20th November 2005 at 03:22 AM. Reason: Removed active auction photo

17th November 2005, 08:54 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	That certainly looks like a trench knife made from a bayonet. Looks great and I bet you would have to work very hard to get another one. I am not really a reader of WW1 history but I am unaware of Turkish trenches other than Gallipoli/Dardinelles as far as I know the other Ottoman fronts were on open land. A nice buy. Tim

17th November 2005, 09:09 PM	#3
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I would agree, trench "art". I find the iconography of the cresent and six pointed star (star of David ???) an interesting juxtaposition, if that's what they are. Rich S

17th November 2005, 10:13 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Never have seen something like this. I dont have knowledge about bayonets enough to identify the models of the spare parts, it can be a trench knife but..even if I ignore the Chinese?? looking strange guard (it is circular,not?)which is totally unrelated to Turkish, the existence of 6 pointed star is a real problem. 6 p star has been used in a different form as something magical, but never as a national symbol as far as i know. The flag was 8 pointed in early times, and 5 pointed in the last centuries with nuances in the design. No Turk or any other Moslem around here would think of changing the star with a 6 pointed one when creating a hand made item in 19 or 20th centuries when this item was crafted. Too absurd. I think this item is not long ago created to sell or even if it is old, the crescent -star is mounted to give the item an identity and to increase price later by someone whose history knowledge is not perfect.

18th November 2005, 01:06 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Erlikhan, Very astute observation! It looks to me that the blade is a tip of a saber (Bayonets are mostly straight, this blade is curved. Yes, I know some bayos are curved but I am talking probabilities here), while the scabbard and the handle were made out of the original scabbard.There are even traces of soldering on both. The decorations were added as an afterthought. In short, somebody took an old and broken saber and made this dagger. May be trench art, may be bored home-grown Assadullah. The bottom line, this thing can do the job!

18th November 2005, 01:57 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,602	Sword is possible, but bayonet is not less likely. If you take a close look at the scabbard mouth of this piece, it looks like the brass mouth of a bayonet scabbard: you know, the leather bayonet scabbards with brass mountings. And if the trench art theory is correct, the rest could have been made from a brass shell. The crescent and the star appear inconsistent with the rest of the knife, and I think Erlikhan is right in believing that someone added them later in an attempt to enhance the value of the piece, which is an all too common phenomenon with unknowledgeable traders of militaria. Of course, we will never really know who made this knife and for what purpose, but to me at least it seems well suited to be a trench dagger.

18th November 2005, 05:52 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	I have just read they did and with distinction as all did in that terrible war. Tim

18th November 2005, 07:10 PM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Well I think a Moroccan can best estimate if it is their trench or not. I dont know if they have ever had use of such a combo design of crescent and star in therir traditions. What I feel from the design, somebody has tried to imitate an Ottoman identity as far as their knowledge and visual memory let them.

19th November 2005, 11:37 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	Yes I think you might have it, look here, http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...offensive.aspx

19th November 2005, 01:47 PM	#12
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Miyamoto, where did you find this pic ?

19th November 2005, 09:15 PM	#14
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin, 6 pointed star was always used by Trabzon or any other town in the Ottoman empire and other non Ottomanic Turks or perhaps other Moslems, as a talismanic symbol to bring good luck and fortune and perhaps even didnt decrease till the end of 19th c. The picture you attached is in that manner. 6 pointed star without a crescent. But what would surprize me only is to see it inside a crescent. I have seen crescent and 8 pointed star in Azeri kindjals(and their flag is still 8 p. ), and 5 p. in some others, but not a 6 pointed. So you say, you have seen a lot of shashkas with exactly that design - 6 p. star inside a crescent-, right? By Kabardins. But not other Circassians..Interesting info. I guess you want to mean Karaims by "Jew like Moslems" .They are Turk in race and language and Jew in religion,whose population were quite large in Ukraine and Caucassia before WW2 German occupation, but very little now. I know them as merchants,and dont think they would have troops, militaristic symbols and productions. Could they have combined 6 p. star and the crescent to symbolize their special identity??And Uzbek troops with the same symbol? I would like to see if any picture is available. regards

20th November 2005, 09:11 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	Does this reflect on to the "trench art" knife in question? I have been reading off the net that the eastern front was more open because of the distances involved. I personally think this is a product of Moroccan troops. Tim