Spanish Rapier/Broadsword

napoleon · 4th August 2022, 07:46 PM

Opinions age and origin please

fernando · 4th August 2022, 09:04 PM

No inscriptions on the blade; no makers marks on the ricasso behind the cup guard ?
Strange; if this is genuine, must be an early example, judging by the pierced hilt and twisted quillons and knuckle guard.

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2022, 10:36 PM

It is always interesting when a sword is posted without any information, thoughts or observations by the individual posting it. Just photos of a 'sword' or as in this case Spanish rapier /broadsword? are puzzling. I have a hard time imagining acquiring a weapon without any information beyond a cursory note.

Dont get me wrong, I am grateful for the weapons posted, but appreciate at least some notes or observations accompanying the piece, and whatever information the owner has, dimensions, markings, provenance if possible, and any research however minimal that has been made.

This is a very nice cup hilt in style. Most of these of course date in the 1640-70 period with obvious variations outside that general period. As Fernando well notes, there would be markings on the blade, especially on a rapier..which is what this is, having nothing to do with broadswords.

Spanish rapiers however typically have oblate pommels, this with tall capstan looks English. The writhen work on quillons and knuckle guard are consistent with many of these hilts into 1660s, but vary widely, while the style of the terminals looks like on Spanish examples.

The cup is most unusual with this pierced band around the upper part, it seems in most cases the cup is typically either fully pierced, or engraved or solid, and there would be a rompepuntas (folded over rim). The arms inside the cup are also unusual being voluted, and I cannot see a guardopolvo.

With this kind of wire wrap on the grip, in style, there should be Turks heads.

Interested Party · 4th August 2022, 11:13 PM

Am I wrong in noting there is no ricasso on this blade? Jim, is that why you called it a rapier/broadsword? Fingering this blade could be uncomfortable

toaster5sqn · 5th August 2022, 02:00 AM

Dimensions are definitely needed before any further comments can be made. Some transitional rapier/smallswords can look very rapierish until placed next to a true rapier and only then does the fact that they have been scaled down while keeping all proportions intact become apparent. I'm getting that sort of vibe from this piece but with nothing to scale it against there is no way to tell.

Robert

Radboud · 5th August 2022, 02:17 AM

I second the previous comments; dimensions are needed, there should be turks heads on both ends of the grip wire, and the ricasso is wrong.

Also, I'm unsure over how the cup guard is attached to the crossguard. Normally we would expect to see screws or similar used to attach it to the annelets.

Finally, the knuckle bow shape looks off, either squashed or made in the wrong shape and it appears to have been attached to the pommel?

werecow · 5th August 2022, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Am I wrong in noting there is no ricasso on this blade? [...] Fingering this blade could be uncomfortable

You're not wrong, and that's just plain weird looking. Or maybe it's just some style I'm unfamiliar with. I hope it's unsharpened down there or you'd cut your finger off! Maybe a blade attached to a new hilt in a slightly awkward way?

Jim McDougall · 5th August 2022, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Am I wrong in noting there is no ricasso on this blade? Jim, is that why you called it a rapier/broadsword? Fingering this blade could be uncomfortable

Actually I was referring to the title, which terms this a Spanish rapier/broadsword......as I noted, this has nothing to do with broadswords...however as you note.......that key feature of a rapier is not present either.

Interested Party · 5th August 2022, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually I was referring to the title, which terms this a Spanish rapier/broadsword......as I noted, this has nothing to do with broadswords...however as you note.......that key feature of a rapier is not present either.

Could it be a remounted transition blade? I know that the long risacco came along later in the progression from cut and thrust to thrusting swords.

ulfberth · 5th August 2022, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by napoleon

Opinions age and origin please

Age: circa 1870
Origin : France judging by the type of blade

4th August 2022, 07:46 PM	#1
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	Spanish Rapier/Broadsword Opinions age and origin please Attached Images

4th August 2022, 10:36 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	It is always interesting when a sword is posted without any information, thoughts or observations by the individual posting it. Just photos of a 'sword' or as in this case Spanish rapier /broadsword? are puzzling. I have a hard time imagining acquiring a weapon without any information beyond a cursory note. Dont get me wrong, I am grateful for the weapons posted, but appreciate at least some notes or observations accompanying the piece, and whatever information the owner has, dimensions, markings, provenance if possible, and any research however minimal that has been made. This is a very nice cup hilt in style. Most of these of course date in the 1640-70 period with obvious variations outside that general period. As Fernando well notes, there would be markings on the blade, especially on a rapier..which is what this is, having nothing to do with broadswords. Spanish rapiers however typically have oblate pommels, this with tall capstan looks English. The writhen work on quillons and knuckle guard are consistent with many of these hilts into 1660s, but vary widely, while the style of the terminals looks like on Spanish examples. The cup is most unusual with this pierced band around the upper part, it seems in most cases the cup is typically either fully pierced, or engraved or solid, and there would be a rompepuntas (folded over rim). The arms inside the cup are also unusual being voluted, and I cannot see a guardopolvo. With this kind of wire wrap on the grip, in style, there should be Turks heads. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th August 2022 at 10:54 PM.

4th August 2022, 09:04 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No inscriptions on the blade; no makers marks on the ricasso behind the cup guard ? Strange; if this is genuine, must be an early example, judging by the pierced hilt and twisted quillons and knuckle guard.

4th August 2022, 11:13 PM	#4
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 464	Am I wrong in noting there is no ricasso on this blade? Jim, is that why you called it a rapier/broadsword? Fingering this blade could be uncomfortable

5th August 2022, 02:00 AM	#5
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72	Dimensions are definitely needed before any further comments can be made. Some transitional rapier/smallswords can look very rapierish until placed next to a true rapier and only then does the fact that they have been scaled down while keeping all proportions intact become apparent. I'm getting that sort of vibe from this piece but with nothing to scale it against there is no way to tell. Robert

5th August 2022, 02:17 AM	#6
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	I second the previous comments; dimensions are needed, there should be turks heads on both ends of the grip wire, and the ricasso is wrong. Also, I'm unsure over how the cup guard is attached to the crossguard. Normally we would expect to see screws or similar used to attach it to the annelets. Finally, the knuckle bow shape looks off, either squashed or made in the wrong shape and it appears to have been attached to the pommel?