Were the chakram's only used by the Sikhs?

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2007, 04:13 PM

I am, at the moment, reading The Itinerary of Ludovico di Varthema of Bologna, who, from 1502-1508 travelled in the Arabic World and on the Indian west coast.

On page 46 and 47 Lodovico has come to the city of Cambay in Gujarat, and tells that Sultan Mahmud Baigara captured the city from the king of Gujarat about forty years earlier [ca. 1450]. He also tells that the city supply Persia, Tartary, Turkey, Syria, Barbary, that is Africa, Arabia Felix, Ethiopia, India, and a multitude of inhabited islands, with silk and cotton stuff, so it must have been a big city already then.

The rich Sultan often fights with one of his neighbours called the king of the Ioghe [Jogi], living fifteen days journey away. When the king of Ioghe is not fighting, he and his men go out begging, and when they come into a town they blow in small horns, so the citizens know they ‘would like’ to get something to eat. They don’t only have the small horns, they are also armed. “Some of them carry a stick with a ring of iron at the base. Others carry certain iron dishes which cut all around like razors, and they throw these with a sling when they wish to injure any person; and, therefore, when these people arrive at any city in India, every one tries to please them; for should they even kill the first nobleman of the land, they would not suffer any punishment becourse they say that they are saints.”
(see Stone page 168 “212 and page 422 # 27).

Does anyone know where the king of Jogi lived? They can hardly be from Punjab, as the author says it is fifteen day journey away, and that sounds to me, to be too far away.

dennee · 14th October 2007, 05:52 PM

I am guessing that, while the observer may have taken them for a distinct people, the name is simply a transliteration of yogi, i.e., the band was a group of people largely tied by religious practice, thus the customary begging.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2007, 09:36 PM

You could be right, but why does he write that they live fifteen days journey away, and the they fought against the Sultan? To me this sounds as if it is a homogenious clan/sub clan, belonging at a special place.

fernando · 14th October 2007, 11:02 PM

Hi Jens, may i come in ?
It appears that the name, besides yogi as sugested by Dennee, could also be Jogues, and they are also depicted in Imagens do Oriente, watercolour XLVI. Resuming the various period chronists in the Codice introduction, they were sort of philosophers, pilgrims and beggars, wearing very little clothes, either a couple furs or capes of mended pieces of cloth found in the trash. They covered their bodies with ashes ( curi ), which they considered sanctifying.
Browsing on the term, we can read Della Vale ( 1586-1652 ) mentioning their settlement at Kadri near Mangalore ... which is very far from Cambay

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...1:1:251.hobson
However there is a missing link here, as so far only the guys quoted by Warthema were said to use weaponry. Maybe as you say, they would be a special sect.
Fernando

dennee · 14th October 2007, 11:14 PM

I suppose that Jogues could also be a European transliteration, as many yogis/yogins could generally be considered philosophers/pilgrims/beggars. Any particular group might well be related by caste and geographical origin, it just may be that it is difficult to identify them with a particular spot or caste based on the name.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th October 2007, 12:17 PM

Yes you may Fernando, and you are very welcome. Plate XLVI it is, I should have thought of looking there myself.
I did not know Hobson, it is most interesting, and it seems as if Hobson has found the king. The fact that they, 80-130 years later, lived in another place called Kadri near Mangalore does not have to mean much, as someone else can have taken their land and they had to find new land somewhere else, but I agree with you that Mangalore is very much to the south compared to Cambay.
The reason why I brought the subject up was due to the mention of the weapons they used. Does anyone know how widely spread the use of the maze mentioned and the chakram was?

Denee, you may have a point, but from the way it is written I think the author writes about a specific place.

14th October 2007, 04:13 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,716	Were the chakram's only used by the Sikhs? I am, at the moment, reading The Itinerary of Ludovico di Varthema of Bologna, who, from 1502-1508 travelled in the Arabic World and on the Indian west coast. On page 46 and 47 Lodovico has come to the city of Cambay in Gujarat, and tells that Sultan Mahmud Baigara captured the city from the king of Gujarat about forty years earlier [ca. 1450]. He also tells that the city supply Persia, Tartary, Turkey, Syria, Barbary, that is Africa, Arabia Felix, Ethiopia, India, and a multitude of inhabited islands, with silk and cotton stuff, so it must have been a big city already then. The rich Sultan often fights with one of his neighbours called the king of the Ioghe [Jogi], living fifteen days journey away. When the king of Ioghe is not fighting, he and his men go out begging, and when they come into a town they blow in small horns, so the citizens know they ‘would like’ to get something to eat. They don’t only have the small horns, they are also armed. “Some of them carry a stick with a ring of iron at the base. Others carry certain iron dishes which cut all around like razors, and they throw these with a sling when they wish to injure any person; and, therefore, when these people arrive at any city in India, every one tries to please them; for should they even kill the first nobleman of the land, they would not suffer any punishment becourse they say that they are saints.” (see Stone page 168 “212 and page 422 # 27). Does anyone know where the king of Jogi lived? They can hardly be from Punjab, as the author says it is fifteen day journey away, and that sounds to me, to be too far away.

15th October 2007, 12:17 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,716	Yes you may Fernando, and you are very welcome. Plate XLVI it is, I should have thought of looking there myself. I did not know Hobson, it is most interesting, and it seems as if Hobson has found the king. The fact that they, 80-130 years later, lived in another place called Kadri near Mangalore does not have to mean much, as someone else can have taken their land and they had to find new land somewhere else, but I agree with you that Mangalore is very much to the south compared to Cambay. The reason why I brought the subject up was due to the mention of the weapons they used. Does anyone know how widely spread the use of the maze mentioned and the chakram was? Denee, you may have a point, but from the way it is written I think the author writes about a specific place. Attached Images

14th October 2007, 05:52 PM	#2
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	I am guessing that, while the observer may have taken them for a distinct people, the name is simply a transliteration of yogi, i.e., the band was a group of people largely tied by religious practice, thus the customary begging.

14th October 2007, 09:36 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,716	You could be right, but why does he write that they live fifteen days journey away, and the they fought against the Sultan? To me this sounds as if it is a homogenious clan/sub clan, belonging at a special place.

14th October 2007, 11:02 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,667	Hi Jens, may i come in ? It appears that the name, besides yogi as sugested by Dennee, could also be Jogues, and they are also depicted in Imagens do Oriente, watercolour XLVI. Resuming the various period chronists in the Codice introduction, they were sort of philosophers, pilgrims and beggars, wearing very little clothes, either a couple furs or capes of mended pieces of cloth found in the trash. They covered their bodies with ashes ( curi ), which they considered sanctifying. Browsing on the term, we can read Della Vale ( 1586-1652 ) mentioning their settlement at Kadri near Mangalore ... which is very far from Cambay http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...1:1:251.hobson However there is a missing link here, as so far only the guys quoted by Warthema were said to use weaponry. Maybe as you say, they would be a special sect. Fernando

14th October 2007, 11:14 PM	#5
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	I suppose that Jogues could also be a European transliteration, as many yogis/yogins could generally be considered philosophers/pilgrims/beggars. Any particular group might well be related by caste and geographical origin, it just may be that it is difficult to identify them with a particular spot or caste based on the name.