Please help me with translation

wolviex · 10th February 2006, 01:36 PM

Dear All!
Here are some pics of wootz blade, badly damaged because with pitholes of old and removed rust. It is broken twice: the tip is lost and the second break is build up with metal grip. On both sides you can find eastern inscriptions: one is going along back of the blade is quite long, that's why I had to cut the picture into the pieces, 1st one is near the hilt, the last one is near the lost tip. On the second side there are cartouches with inscriptions. If someone is able to read it and traslate, even partially, I would be obliged.
History: this blade is most probably one of the trophies from Vienna in 1683 or from Pereryta, todays Moldova, where Polish king and triuphator from Vienna, Jan III Sobieski, gained his last in his life victory on Turkish army.
Thank you in advance!

B.I · 10th February 2006, 06:45 PM

hi michal,
i cant help, but i went to lunch with a friend that studies islamic art and calligraphy (to a high degree). he said the inscription would take time (longer than we had) but he said the cartouches were written in a different hand to the rest of the inscription. the writing along the blade was genuine, but the cartouches and talismanic bedouh were nonesense.
cant guarantee this, as he didnt have it for long enough. also, given that its in a poland museum, and apparantely taken at the siege of vienna, i cant see there being time for another hand to add to the blade.
he did seem sure the script was different. how long has the museum had the sword?

wolviex · 10th February 2006, 09:13 PM

Hi Brian!
Thank you for your efforts. I'm not surprise that cartouches were made with different hand. That what you can't see are other gold and silver incrustations: the bust of king Jan III Sobieski, date 1692, flags, mace, sabre - I believe symbols of Turkish trophies. The date could be wrongly remembered date of Pereryta battle or it's just without sense, or maybe it was somehow important for the owner. There is also silver Polish Eagle, so the sabre was replenished few times in different periods.
This example is in museum from 1903, before it was in one of the most famous Krakow's family collection. We don't know if it was purchased by this colector from someone or was it drop from his ancestors - two of them fought in Vienna in 1683.

wolviex · 2nd March 2006, 06:02 PM

*bump* ?

bj211 · 29th March 2006, 05:19 PM

Dear wolviex,

This is a beautiful piece, and to be honest, I saw it before,
This is written in Persian language, which unfortunately I can’t read.
But because it uses the same letters as Arabic, I managed to figure out one clear word in there Which is ShamShiri.

Henk · 29th March 2006, 08:05 PM

I'm very happy to see that bj211 joined the forum. Your knowledge of the arab language and your skill to identify the surrounding languages is very helpful for all of us.
Some time ago i posted pictures of a sword I picked up. The only comment was that it was a yathagan blade. Identified as a yathagan I asumed the writing on it could be ottoman. I asked somebody here in Holland who can read the old ottoman writing but she told me that she didn't recognized the writing as ottoman. She guessed the writing could be from India or Pakistan.
I attach the pictures again and I hope someone can tell me what it is and what kind of writing this is.

10th February 2006, 01:36 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Please help me with translation Dear All! Here are some pics of wootz blade, badly damaged because with pitholes of old and removed rust. It is broken twice: the tip is lost and the second break is build up with metal grip. On both sides you can find eastern inscriptions: one is going along back of the blade is quite long, that's why I had to cut the picture into the pieces, 1st one is near the hilt, the last one is near the lost tip. On the second side there are cartouches with inscriptions. If someone is able to read it and traslate, even partially, I would be obliged. History: this blade is most probably one of the trophies from Vienna in 1683 or from Pereryta, todays Moldova, where Polish king and triuphator from Vienna, Jan III Sobieski, gained his last in his life victory on Turkish army. Thank you in advance! Attached Images

29th March 2006, 05:19 PM	#5
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	Dear wolviex, This is a beautiful piece, and to be honest, I saw it before, This is written in Persian language, which unfortunately I can’t read. But because it uses the same letters as Arabic, I managed to figure out one clear word in there Which is ShamShiri. Attached Images

29th March 2006, 08:05 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I'm very happy to see that bj211 joined the forum. Your knowledge of the arab language and your skill to identify the surrounding languages is very helpful for all of us. Some time ago i posted pictures of a sword I picked up. The only comment was that it was a yathagan blade. Identified as a yathagan I asumed the writing on it could be ottoman. I asked somebody here in Holland who can read the old ottoman writing but she told me that she didn't recognized the writing as ottoman. She guessed the writing could be from India or Pakistan. I attach the pictures again and I hope someone can tell me what it is and what kind of writing this is. Attached Images

10th February 2006, 06:45 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, i cant help, but i went to lunch with a friend that studies islamic art and calligraphy (to a high degree). he said the inscription would take time (longer than we had) but he said the cartouches were written in a different hand to the rest of the inscription. the writing along the blade was genuine, but the cartouches and talismanic bedouh were nonesense. cant guarantee this, as he didnt have it for long enough. also, given that its in a poland museum, and apparantely taken at the siege of vienna, i cant see there being time for another hand to add to the blade. he did seem sure the script was different. how long has the museum had the sword?

10th February 2006, 09:13 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hi Brian! Thank you for your efforts. I'm not surprise that cartouches were made with different hand. That what you can't see are other gold and silver incrustations: the bust of king Jan III Sobieski, date 1692, flags, mace, sabre - I believe symbols of Turkish trophies. The date could be wrongly remembered date of Pereryta battle or it's just without sense, or maybe it was somehow important for the owner. There is also silver Polish Eagle, so the sabre was replenished few times in different periods. This example is in museum from 1903, before it was in one of the most famous Krakow's family collection. We don't know if it was purchased by this colector from someone or was it drop from his ancestors - two of them fought in Vienna in 1683.

2nd March 2006, 06:02 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	bump ?