Spanish Rapiers, a Bilbo FYC.

Atlantia · 21st September 2008, 07:37 PM

Jim is doing a great job on this forum, and I am happy to add to the discussion of European swords with this:

Here is my favourite sword, my Bilbo.
I bought it about 15 years ago, and at the time it cost more than the car I drove. It came from a reputable dealer who dated it at 1580, which I think may have been a bit 'enthusiastic' and I'd say it could be anything up to mid 17thC. It is 41 1/2 " long overall with a 35" blade (visible edge).
The blade is marked: .S A H A G V N. in pig-latin, I don't see any great reason to doubt the German origin, but either way, its a fine blade. The entire piece is darkly mottled, I know many would clean it up, but I kind of like it this way. The hilt is wrapped with silver wire.
The larger shell is engraved with a large flower (sunflower?)
The small shell is engraved with what seems to be a 'closed' flower.
It has some contemporary 'working' repairs done, nothing serious, the shell is held in place by four steel pins. It looks as though the sword took a hard blow on one of the quillions and bent it and loosened the shell. The quillion has been straightened and as you can see is not quite round in section any more, the steel pins have been tightened and onein particular has 'punch' marks around it. This working repair has left the quillions about 5 degrees off of the right angle. I must admit, I kind of like this, and the various little 'knicks' in the edge, this sword was clearly used. I just wish I could identify the iconography of the flower emblems and if they represented the man/family/organisation that it was made for.

I'd love to hear the members opionions on this sword. Please be kind, its my pride and joy ;-)

Pictures:

Atlantia · 21st September 2008, 07:37 PM

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2008, 06:55 AM

Atlantia, this piece is fantastic!! Actually when we talked and you spoke of a 'bilbo' I was thinking of an entirely different sword, those considered to be the M1728 (described in numerous works on Spanish weapons, with some dissent on the application of that model date, but military swords used into the 19th c.).
In checking "The Rapier and Small Sword" by the esteemed A.V.B.Norman (London, 1980, p.156) hilt #82 is very much like this sword, though the example has up and down turned quillons, and the pommel is quite different. Norman describes the example with wide range 1660-1795, leaving assessment of your example to the variation in elements.

The term 'bilbo' is often misleading and confusing, and though it is typically regarded as a Victorian collectors term probably derived from the term bilobate (which these asymmetrical shell guard swords are), it seems to have been applied to Spanish swords as early as Shakespeares time. In "Merry Wives of Windsor" the term 'bilbo' refers to a fine sword, however it is used in a metaphoric context.

I would consider this sword a 'bilobate' rapier, and it seems the faceted pommel has been described as mid 18th century I believe attributed to Royal Bodyguards in Spain, but cannot recall for sure the reference. The straight quillons recalling the familiar Spanish cuphilt of the 17th century, and seen on early 18th century swords of this type (also with the wire wrapped grip enclosed by four posts) that are likely associated with the M1728 military pattern, also bilobate with the four post grip.

The 'Sahagum' is of course a Solingen interpretation alluding to the Spanish smith, and as early as 1620's blades with this spurious application I believe were being sent to the Netherlands. I think this note was found in Norman as well, and with the Spanish presence there at the time this sounds very logical.

The scalloped guardopolvo is another possible Spanish feature in my opinion, as the striated clamshell is found often on the guards of Spanish edged weapons.

I'd really like to hear other opinions on this beautiful piece, but wanted to note my observations, which at this point would consider this a Spanish bilobate rapier, possibly an officers, and early 18th century. The clearly Solingen blade with that choice of trademark name may suggest this possibly has provenance to the Spanish Netherlands, and the faceted pommel may be a point of contention to dating the sword.

Thank you for posting this Atlantia, and I look forward to other views.

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 22nd September 2008, 12:54 PM

Wow Jim,
Thanks for kicking this discussion off mate!
I'm still trying to absorb all the information and implications of what you've written!
Is it possible to scan and add some pics of the examples you mention? I can't picture that pattern, so when you talk about M1728 I can't help but think 'Isn't that a galaxy in the constellation Andromeda?' ;-)

Seriously though, I can see that this thread is clearly going to be a serious education for me. I'm not sure now what I'm hoping for when it comes to a definative ID on this sword, but I guess I am hoping to ID it beyond any doubt.
Do you recognise the flowers? Do you think there is any relevance to them, or just randomly chosen decoration?

Regards
Gene

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Atlantia, this piece is fantastic!! Actually when we talked and you spoke of a 'bilbo' I was thinking of an entirely different sword, those considered to be the M1728 (described in numerous works on Spanish weapons, with some dissent on the application of that model date, but military swords used into the 19th c.).
In checking "The Rapier and Small Sword" by the esteemed A.V.B.Norman (London, 1980, p.156) hilt #82 is very much like this sword, though the example has up and down turned quillons, and the pommel is quite different. Norman describes the example with wide range 1660-1795, leaving assessment of your example to the variation in elements.

The term 'bilbo' is often misleading and confusing, and though it is typically regarded as a Victorian collectors term probably derived from the term bilobate (which these asymmetrical shell guard swords are), it seems to have been applied to Spanish swords as early as Shakespeares time. In "Merry Wives of Windsor" the term 'bilbo' refers to a fine sword, however it is used in a metaphoric context.

I would consider this sword a 'bilobate' rapier, and it seems the faceted pommel has been described as mid 18th century I believe attributed to Royal Bodyguards in Spain, but cannot recall for sure the reference. The straight quillons recalling the familiar Spanish cuphilt of the 17th century, and seen on early 18th century swords of this type (also with the wire wrapped grip enclosed by four posts) that are likely associated with the M1728 military pattern, also bilobate with the four post grip.

The 'Sahagum' is of course a Solingen interpretation alluding to the Spanish smith, and as early as 1620's blades with this spurious application I believe were being sent to the Netherlands. I think this note was found in Norman as well, and with the Spanish presence there at the time this sounds very logical.

The scalloped guardopolvo is another possible Spanish feature in my opinion, as the striated clamshell is found often on the guards of Spanish edged weapons.

I'd really like to hear other opinions on this beautiful piece, but wanted to note my observations, which at this point would consider this a Spanish bilobate rapier, possibly an officers, and early 18th century. The clearly Solingen blade with that choice of trademark name may suggest this possibly has provenance to the Spanish Netherlands, and the faceted pommel may be a point of contention to dating the sword.

Thank you for posting this Atlantia, and I look forward to other views.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 23rd September 2008, 01:21 AM

Hi Gene,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... I can't picture that pattern, so when you talk about M1728 I can't help but think [I]'Isn't that a galaxy in the constellation Andromeda ...

Can you read Spanish (Castillian) ?

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

another one:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab.htm

Fernando

fernando · 23rd September 2008, 01:38 AM

BTW, Gene ... and Jim,
It seems as the grip of the sword under discussion, with the wiring 'locked' by four iron filets, is a pattern used at an earlier stage . I can see precisely the same thing in a Peninsular left hand dagger from the first half XVII century.
... for what it matters.

Fernando

Atlantia · 23rd September 2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene,

Can you read Spanish (Castillian) ?

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

another one:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab.htm

Fernando

LOL, I can pick out a few words! But the pictures speak volumes!!
The last picture on this page:
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

Has BIG similarities to my sword. Can't wait for more information, keep it coming :-)

fernando · 22nd September 2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... I'd love to hear the members opionions on this sword. Please be kind, its my pride and joy ;-)

Hi Gene,
Envy has been sufocating me ... and doesn't allow me to coment

Forget me not, the day you decide to get rid of it

.
Fernando

Atlantia · 22nd September 2008, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene,
Envy has been sufocating me ... and doesn't allow me to coment

Forget me not, the day you decide to get rid of it

.
Fernando

Hi Buddy :-)

It would look quite at hiome in your magnificent collection!

Thank you for your kind envy ;-) Please do comment, you probobly know more about these than I do.

Regards
Gene

fernando · 22nd September 2008, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Please do comment, you probably know more about these than I do ...

No, it's a mistake. When i need to discuss something i rush to the Net and to the miserable couple books i have, learn the most possible in a moment and come back to drop a coment.
I don't possess a pre-built knowledge (luggage, like we say here) like Jim or Marc (or others) to validate things instantly, as already known from previous experience and learnings. As i don't have a piece the type of this one of yours, i haven't yet cultivated such area.
But i know i like it ... very much

Fernando

TVV · 23rd September 2008, 12:32 AM

Gene,
I cannot make any other comments other than you, Fernando and the rest of the guys here had done it and now I crave Spanish (and Portuguese) rapiers and broadswords on top of everything else I already crave. Before I plunge into acquiring one, I will need to learn a lot, so keep them coming.
Regards,
Teodor

21st September 2008, 07:37 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Spanish Rapiers, a Bilbo FYC. Jim is doing a great job on this forum, and I am happy to add to the discussion of European swords with this: Here is my favourite sword, my Bilbo. I bought it about 15 years ago, and at the time it cost more than the car I drove. It came from a reputable dealer who dated it at 1580, which I think may have been a bit 'enthusiastic' and I'd say it could be anything up to mid 17thC. It is 41 1/2 " long overall with a 35" blade (visible edge). The blade is marked: .S A H A G V N. in pig-latin, I don't see any great reason to doubt the German origin, but either way, its a fine blade. The entire piece is darkly mottled, I know many would clean it up, but I kind of like it this way. The hilt is wrapped with silver wire. The larger shell is engraved with a large flower (sunflower?) The small shell is engraved with what seems to be a 'closed' flower. It has some contemporary 'working' repairs done, nothing serious, the shell is held in place by four steel pins. It looks as though the sword took a hard blow on one of the quillions and bent it and loosened the shell. The quillion has been straightened and as you can see is not quite round in section any more, the steel pins have been tightened and onein particular has 'punch' marks around it. This working repair has left the quillions about 5 degrees off of the right angle. I must admit, I kind of like this, and the various little 'knicks' in the edge, this sword was clearly used. I just wish I could identify the iconography of the flower emblems and if they represented the man/family/organisation that it was made for. I'd love to hear the members opionions on this sword. Please be kind, its my pride and joy ;-) Pictures: Last edited by Atlantia; 21st September 2008 at 08:11 PM.

22nd September 2008, 06:55 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Atlantia, this piece is fantastic!! Actually when we talked and you spoke of a 'bilbo' I was thinking of an entirely different sword, those considered to be the M1728 (described in numerous works on Spanish weapons, with some dissent on the application of that model date, but military swords used into the 19th c.). In checking "The Rapier and Small Sword" by the esteemed A.V.B.Norman (London, 1980, p.156) hilt #82 is very much like this sword, though the example has up and down turned quillons, and the pommel is quite different. Norman describes the example with wide range 1660-1795, leaving assessment of your example to the variation in elements. The term 'bilbo' is often misleading and confusing, and though it is typically regarded as a Victorian collectors term probably derived from the term bilobate (which these asymmetrical shell guard swords are), it seems to have been applied to Spanish swords as early as Shakespeares time. In "Merry Wives of Windsor" the term 'bilbo' refers to a fine sword, however it is used in a metaphoric context. I would consider this sword a 'bilobate' rapier, and it seems the faceted pommel has been described as mid 18th century I believe attributed to Royal Bodyguards in Spain, but cannot recall for sure the reference. The straight quillons recalling the familiar Spanish cuphilt of the 17th century, and seen on early 18th century swords of this type (also with the wire wrapped grip enclosed by four posts) that are likely associated with the M1728 military pattern, also bilobate with the four post grip. The 'Sahagum' is of course a Solingen interpretation alluding to the Spanish smith, and as early as 1620's blades with this spurious application I believe were being sent to the Netherlands. I think this note was found in Norman as well, and with the Spanish presence there at the time this sounds very logical. The scalloped guardopolvo is another possible Spanish feature in my opinion, as the striated clamshell is found often on the guards of Spanish edged weapons. I'd really like to hear other opinions on this beautiful piece, but wanted to note my observations, which at this point would consider this a Spanish bilobate rapier, possibly an officers, and early 18th century. The clearly Solingen blade with that choice of trademark name may suggest this possibly has provenance to the Spanish Netherlands, and the faceted pommel may be a point of contention to dating the sword. Thank you for posting this Atlantia, and I look forward to other views. All the best, Jim

23rd September 2008, 01:38 AM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	BTW, Gene ... and Jim, It seems as the grip of the sword under discussion, with the wiring 'locked' by four iron filets, is a pattern used at an earlier stage . I can see precisely the same thing in a Peninsular left hand dagger from the first half XVII century. ... for what it matters. Fernando

23rd September 2008, 12:32 AM	#11
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,602	Gene, I cannot make any other comments other than you, Fernando and the rest of the guys here had done it and now I crave Spanish (and Portuguese) rapiers and broadswords on top of everything else I already crave. Before I plunge into acquiring one, I will need to learn a lot, so keep them coming. Regards, Teodor