Silver Baskethilt Sword for comment

SwordLover79 · 31st January 2024, 05:22 PM

I recently acquired an interesting basket hilt sword from an old American collection. Possibly an older blade married to an more recent hilt. The owner (deceased) purchased it in the 1950's according to his family. Silver hilt marked with a Thistle preceded by the letters "RG" and the letter "Z". The hilt is 7.5" X 6.25" X 4.25". The blade is 36.25 inches long by 2 inches wide with 7 inch double fullers on both sides and pencil engraving adjacent to the fullers. A Crowned 6-point star on both sides of the ricasso. Within the fullers on one side of the blade engraved in large letters "PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA". Engraved crosswise in smaller letters and much worn "FIDE SED CUI VIDE" and "NEC TEMERE NEC TIMIDE." My guess is that silver hilt are all unique. Any insights or suggestions are welcome!

Norman McCormick · 31st January 2024, 06:08 PM

Hi,
This would be a good place to start.
Regard,
Norman.

https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/...tters%20Z.html

https://silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make...urgh-R.html#RG

Radboud · 31st January 2024, 08:38 PM

What an interesting sword and great to see another silver basket hilt. As you say I also suspect the basket is later than the blade. Fortunately it is hallmarked which should help give us a more precise date.

I'd recommend that you post photos of the basket, sword and hallmarks on this forum, www.925-1000.com - Scottish Hallmarks they are the experts in my experience.

10thRoyal · 2nd February 2024, 06:39 PM

I'm not sure about the blade but I have a match for the maker of the basket at least. This one was a good brain teaser to find. I found a mention in "The Silver Spoon Club" magazine from 2006 that lists a spoon made by a Robert Gordon of Madras circa 1812 with a RG and thistle mark with a Z stamp. They even had a a picture of this stamp.

Your sword is getting more interesting by the minute!

Jim McDougall · 2nd February 2024, 07:17 PM

Absolutely Brilliant 10th!
As always, the answers to our questions as we try to identify swords are so often not in any 'sword' book!
Here we have our answer in a 'silver spoon book' yay!

So this hilt maker, and apparently his family were situated in Madras. The Scottish presence in India has been well known during the British Raj, and Madras (then Chennai) was a key East India Co. center, with a considerable Scottish community.

By analogy I think of a Pathan commander of the famed "Khyber Rifles" c. 1880s in a photograph holding a Scottish basket hilt. Also, there was a very interesting paper online titled "The Tiger and the Thistle" about the notable Scottish presence in the East India Company in the time of Tipu Sultan in Mysore (near Madras). The tiger was the symbol of Tipu Sultan.

So perhaps a remarkably made Scottish basket hilt in silver produced for an officer or someone of notable standing in Madras in the periods established by the hallmark. It is hard to say what this apparently heirloom blade might be from, but obviously the inset ricasso as seen in rapier blades suggests it is from an entirely different type of sword .
Now to find the maker or user of that punzone on the blade.

SwordLover79 · 5th February 2024, 04:02 PM

I truly appreciate the insights - what a great forum! Does anybody recognize the crowned star mark on the blade by any change?

31st January 2024, 05:22 PM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Silver Baskethilt Sword for comment I recently acquired an interesting basket hilt sword from an old American collection. Possibly an older blade married to an more recent hilt. The owner (deceased) purchased it in the 1950's according to his family. Silver hilt marked with a Thistle preceded by the letters "RG" and the letter "Z". The hilt is 7.5" X 6.25" X 4.25". The blade is 36.25 inches long by 2 inches wide with 7 inch double fullers on both sides and pencil engraving adjacent to the fullers. A Crowned 6-point star on both sides of the ricasso. Within the fullers on one side of the blade engraved in large letters "PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA". Engraved crosswise in smaller letters and much worn "FIDE SED CUI VIDE" and "NEC TEMERE NEC TIMIDE." My guess is that silver hilt are all unique. Any insights or suggestions are welcome! Attached Images

2nd February 2024, 06:39 PM	#4
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	I'm not sure about the blade but I have a match for the maker of the basket at least. This one was a good brain teaser to find. I found a mention in "The Silver Spoon Club" magazine from 2006 that lists a spoon made by a Robert Gordon of Madras circa 1812 with a RG and thistle mark with a Z stamp. They even had a a picture of this stamp. Your sword is getting more interesting by the minute! Attached Images

31st January 2024, 06:08 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, This would be a good place to start. Regard, Norman. https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/...tters%20Z.html https://silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make...urgh-R.html#RG

31st January 2024, 08:38 PM	#3
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	What an interesting sword and great to see another silver basket hilt. As you say I also suspect the basket is later than the blade. Fortunately it is hallmarked which should help give us a more precise date. I'd recommend that you post photos of the basket, sword and hallmarks on this forum, www.925-1000.com - Scottish Hallmarks they are the experts in my experience.

2nd February 2024, 07:17 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Absolutely Brilliant 10th! As always, the answers to our questions as we try to identify swords are so often not in any 'sword' book! Here we have our answer in a 'silver spoon book' yay! So this hilt maker, and apparently his family were situated in Madras. The Scottish presence in India has been well known during the British Raj, and Madras (then Chennai) was a key East India Co. center, with a considerable Scottish community. By analogy I think of a Pathan commander of the famed "Khyber Rifles" c. 1880s in a photograph holding a Scottish basket hilt. Also, there was a very interesting paper online titled "The Tiger and the Thistle" about the notable Scottish presence in the East India Company in the time of Tipu Sultan in Mysore (near Madras). The tiger was the symbol of Tipu Sultan. So perhaps a remarkably made Scottish basket hilt in silver produced for an officer or someone of notable standing in Madras in the periods established by the hallmark. It is hard to say what this apparently heirloom blade might be from, but obviously the inset ricasso as seen in rapier blades suggests it is from an entirely different type of sword . Now to find the maker or user of that punzone on the blade.

5th February 2024, 04:02 PM	#6
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	I truly appreciate the insights - what a great forum! Does anybody recognize the crowned star mark on the blade by any change?