Tulwar makers/armory mark help?

timv · 11th August 2007, 10:52 PM

Hello all!

I've finally gotten around to addressing my loose hilt problem on a very sad old tulwar. I was told it was excavated and boy do I believe it! Unfortunately someone got hold of it and went to town with an angle grinder or something else equally destructive. Anyway, I did remove the hilt and (in the only place the grinder couldn't reach) under the hilt I found an interesting makers mark or armory mark. Can anyone help me identify it? I took the best pics I could - hope you can help.

Pukka Bundook · 14th August 2007, 02:45 PM

Hi Timy,
Can't help with the mark, but it Is a very nice clear one.

I got one a while ago that had also had the angle-grinder treatment, so had to be filed up and re-finished.
If nothing else, it Does give you a reason to clean it, which otherwise you would not do...

timv · 17th August 2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

If nothing else, it Does give you a reason to clean it, which otherwise you would not do...

Hi Pukka,
Your absolutely right. As far as the mark is concerned I can't even identify what kind of characters they are. Since I'm quite ignorant about these marks in general I was hoping that someone here might have seen something vaguely similar.

tombstone777 · 28th August 2007, 03:54 AM

Maybe somebody can make a guess at least at what this mark can stand for? I know that there are members here who are very knowledgeable about these weapons and their manufacture and I hope they can help with some info.

timv · 5th September 2007, 01:29 AM

Anybody?

Jim McDougall · 5th September 2007, 04:40 AM

Hi Timv,
While there is indeed considerable knowledge in the ranks here, it is often extremely specialized and sometimes those who are key in the study of Indian weapons are not at hand. While not specialized in the weapons of India, I will offer some observations that I hope will be of some help.

First of all, weapons in this condition are my favorite as they are true warriors usually that have not yet been worked over, and are often snubbed by dealers as well as many collectors. These old warriors often have thier own stories uncrusted in the dark patination, history itself! If I may suggest, please bring it to static condition, but dont overclean it.

This appears to be probably Rajput, or a talwar from Rajasthan regions and most likely early to mid 19th c. judging by its form, without consulting resources handy, this is my estimation. The deeply stamped cartouche is interesting, and since it is found under the hilt, is probably a makers stamp that may have numeric figures as these often had to do with contracts of blades produced I believe. It seems that armoury stamps typically were found on the blade visible in the fully mounted weapon.
I have seen similar deep cartouche stamps on early tulwar blades that were present in blade near the hilt, but clearly visible, and these seem to have held Urdu characters. I have not seen translations of the examples seen unfortunately. These blades often had the trisula at the center of the blade which was a traditional and iconographic symbol. One of the best resources available on such symbolism is Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" which although obviously focused on these weapons, also elaborates on the symbolism found in Indian weapons of much wider scope.

While your tulwar may be 'excavated' in its condition, its presence is outstanding, and the marking intriguing, worthy of continued research.
Thank you for posting it!

Best regards,
Jim

11th August 2007, 10:52 PM	#1
timv Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	Tulwar makers/armory mark help? Hello all! I've finally gotten around to addressing my loose hilt problem on a very sad old tulwar. I was told it was excavated and boy do I believe it! Unfortunately someone got hold of it and went to town with an angle grinder or something else equally destructive. Anyway, I did remove the hilt and (in the only place the grinder couldn't reach) under the hilt I found an interesting makers mark or armory mark. Can anyone help me identify it? I took the best pics I could - hope you can help.

28th August 2007, 03:54 AM	#4
tombstone777 Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 14	Can someone make a guess? Maybe somebody can make a guess at least at what this mark can stand for? I know that there are members here who are very knowledgeable about these weapons and their manufacture and I hope they can help with some info.

14th August 2007, 02:45 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hi Timy, Can't help with the mark, but it Is a very nice clear one. I got one a while ago that had also had the angle-grinder treatment, so had to be filed up and re-finished. If nothing else, it Does give you a reason to clean it, which otherwise you would not do...

5th September 2007, 01:29 AM	#5
timv Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	Anybody?

5th September 2007, 04:40 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Hi Timv, While there is indeed considerable knowledge in the ranks here, it is often extremely specialized and sometimes those who are key in the study of Indian weapons are not at hand. While not specialized in the weapons of India, I will offer some observations that I hope will be of some help. First of all, weapons in this condition are my favorite as they are true warriors usually that have not yet been worked over, and are often snubbed by dealers as well as many collectors. These old warriors often have thier own stories uncrusted in the dark patination, history itself! If I may suggest, please bring it to static condition, but dont overclean it. This appears to be probably Rajput, or a talwar from Rajasthan regions and most likely early to mid 19th c. judging by its form, without consulting resources handy, this is my estimation. The deeply stamped cartouche is interesting, and since it is found under the hilt, is probably a makers stamp that may have numeric figures as these often had to do with contracts of blades produced I believe. It seems that armoury stamps typically were found on the blade visible in the fully mounted weapon. I have seen similar deep cartouche stamps on early tulwar blades that were present in blade near the hilt, but clearly visible, and these seem to have held Urdu characters. I have not seen translations of the examples seen unfortunately. These blades often had the trisula at the center of the blade which was a traditional and iconographic symbol. One of the best resources available on such symbolism is Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" which although obviously focused on these weapons, also elaborates on the symbolism found in Indian weapons of much wider scope. While your tulwar may be 'excavated' in its condition, its presence is outstanding, and the marking intriguing, worthy of continued research. Thank you for posting it! Best regards, Jim