Tulwar Inscription

Norman McCormick · 6th December 2007, 07:40 PM

Hello,
I have posted this item on several other forums without success and was wondering if anyone here can help with the inscription on this Tulwar.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2007, 02:25 AM

Hi Norman,
I'm glad you have decided to post here. Your tulwar seems to have a most interesting blade, and I cant recall ever seeing a blade with this linear vegetal motif along the back. Perhaps you might show the entire sword so we can see the entire blade profile and the hilt. These sometimes present clues as to the possible provenance of the sword, though admittedly, with Indian swords, especially tulwars it is difficult if even possible.

While hoping that our friend Olikara might offer insight on the characters inscribed in the blade, I would suggest they might be Urdu numerics, though I clearly am no linguist. The circle over three dots may represent the sun and the three dots, the trimurti, a numeric sequence key in symbolism and markings in many cultures. In the meantime, I look forward to full view of the weapon.

All best regards,
Jim

olikara · 8th December 2007, 03:02 AM

Norman,

This is definitely not any of Indias Devnagairi related scripts i.e. languages spoken across the swathe of Hindu India's Northern, Western and Central provinces.

They look to me more like symbols.

Olikara

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2007, 04:28 AM

Thanks very much Olikara! Now that we know the characters are not from any of India's alphabets, we need to think of what kind of symbols these might be. As I noted, the circle and three dots may represent sun and the trimurti...but in alignment with what? as they seem strategically aligned with the 'symbols'.

All very best regards,
Jim

olikara · 8th December 2007, 07:05 AM

Jim,
Why I think they may be symbolic or may be just another armoury mark(Jens can help here) is because if you notice the inscriptions you only see the fish hook type character all over.

Either singly or one after another or reversed.

Yes the circular symbol with the 3 dots around should in all probability represent the 'Trimurthi' trinity. And then it would give ownership of the sword/blade to a Hindu rather than a Muslim.

Nidhi

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2007, 03:35 PM

Thank you for your confidence in my knowledge Olikara

.

Although I have a feeling that I have seen something like this before, I can’t help, and unfortunately I don’t remember where I have seen it, only that it is years ago. I think the blade should be turned 180° - like this.

It seems like a nice blade, and like Jim, I am looking forward to see the whole sword.

Norman McCormick · 8th December 2007, 03:57 PM

Hello,
Here are some more photographs as requested. Length 37 inches overall, blade 32 1/2 inches. The engraving is continuous for 19 inches and is on the spine of the blade as well as the top fuller on both sides. Will try and get some better photos if needed. Many thanks for your time and interest.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 10th December 2007, 01:07 PM

Hello,
Sorry for the delay but I posted more photos as soon as asked but so far nothing has happened. I keep getting a message saying I'm not authorised to do so despite registering some time ago. I have e-mailed the forum but so far no answer.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. No idea if this message will appear.

Lee · 10th December 2007, 01:53 PM

Welcome, Norman.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people whose idea of doing business on the internet is to spam forums like these with ads for dubious products and services. In order to prevent the membership from being exposed to this refuse, we have had to implement a policy of putting new member's posts into a moderation queue where such ads can be killed before they appear. The moderators are all unpaid volunteers without a duty schedule and sometimes it can be a while before waiting posts get reviewed and cleared. You have now been promoted to allow instant posting.

Sadly, things just seem to keep getting worse. Recently, someone used the PM function to spam their e-book to every member. In the past, we had allowed unconfirmed members to send PMs, as a long time lurker might wish to inquire about an item in the swap forum. The ability to send PMs is now limited to confirmed members.

But, if we did not have these pre-emptive measures in place, these forums and your PM box would be packed with offers for amazing pharmaceuticals of dubious origin and the like.

Norman McCormick · 10th December 2007, 08:02 PM

Hello Lee,
Many thanks for the welcome. I was getting rather concerned that members who had replied to this post would think that I was disinterested or rude by not replying to their questions. This is, I hope, now evident that this is not the case. My original post appeared very quickly but subsequent replies seem to have got stuck in a queue, I appreciate fully the need for caution with regard to new recruits and I hope those who did reply to my question understand the confusion. I have a few more bits and pieces which I think will be of interest to members and look forward to posting these in the future. Many thanks to those who have taken an interest in this post and I look forward to, hopefully, getting to the bottom of this mystery.
Regards,
Norman.

spiral · 10th December 2007, 08:13 PM

Glad you got that sorted Norman

Nice sword.

I have a bayonet with similar script Jim, Ill take a photo, I belive my bayonet is inscribed in a form of Dari.

Heres the scribed form of it although mine is inscibed in a squarer more angular fashion.

Not certan but this sword inscription reminds me of some of it.

I have noticed Afghan swords have that rivet as well although I dont know howe common it was elswhere.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2007, 08:50 PM

Hi Norman,
I'm really glad to see you posting here, and I'm glad you brought your interesting tulwar to us for discussion. I regret any difficulties encountered and am glad its resolved! I'm hoping you'll stay with us, and very much look forward to seeing the other items you mentioned as well.

Thank you for showing us the entire weapon, which does remind me in seeing it overall, of tulwars which seem likely of far northern borders, close to Afghanistan. Spirals comment on having seen similar script on old Afghan weapons seems of course to have been very much on target, now that I see the sword. His comment on the centrally placed rivet in the chowk recalling Afghan swords is equally well placed (see 'good news, bad news tulwar').
The scabbard with heavy chape component and overall appearance seems Afghan, and further suggests tulwars which quite likely diffused from Northwest Frontier regions into Afghanistan. Although many of the weapons of Afghanistan are distinctly recognized, such as the paluoar, the Khyber knife, the lohar ...there is a diversity of weapons from congruent regions also such as the tulwars as noted, shashkas and developed weapons of British influence at the end of the 19th century.

Spiral, thank you for including that script, it does seem that the tribal languages of these regions might reveal script similar to the marks on Norman's tulwar. Any thoughts on the floral motif along the blade? In looking at the circle and three dots, could this have to do with the 'cintamani' often appearing in Central Asian motif? I know sometimes it is three dots with lines below suggesting tiger stripes, but maybe this has some association?

Lee, thank you for the explanation concerning the technical issues,
and Norman thank you again for your patience!

All very best regards,
Jim

6th December 2007, 07:40 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Tulwar Inscription Hello, I have posted this item on several other forums without success and was wondering if anyone here can help with the inscription on this Tulwar. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

8th December 2007, 03:02 AM	#3
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Not Nagari Script Norman, This is definitely not any of Indias Devnagairi related scripts i.e. languages spoken across the swathe of Hindu India's Northern, Western and Central provinces. They look to me more like symbols. Olikara

8th December 2007, 07:05 AM	#5
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Fish Hook Jim, Why I think they may be symbolic or may be just another armoury mark(Jens can help here) is because if you notice the inscriptions you only see the fish hook type character all over. Either singly or one after another or reversed. Yes the circular symbol with the 3 dots around should in all probability represent the 'Trimurthi' trinity. And then it would give ownership of the sword/blade to a Hindu rather than a Muslim. Nidhi

8th December 2007, 03:35 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Thank you for your confidence in my knowledge Olikara. Although I have a feeling that I have seen something like this before, I can’t help, and unfortunately I don’t remember where I have seen it, only that it is years ago. I think the blade should be turned 180° - like this. It seems like a nice blade, and like Jim, I am looking forward to see the whole sword. Attached Images

8th December 2007, 03:57 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hello, Here are some more photographs as requested. Length 37 inches overall, blade 32 1/2 inches. The engraving is continuous for 19 inches and is on the spine of the blade as well as the top fuller on both sides. Will try and get some better photos if needed. Many thanks for your time and interest. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

8th December 2007, 02:25 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Hi Norman, I'm glad you have decided to post here. Your tulwar seems to have a most interesting blade, and I cant recall ever seeing a blade with this linear vegetal motif along the back. Perhaps you might show the entire sword so we can see the entire blade profile and the hilt. These sometimes present clues as to the possible provenance of the sword, though admittedly, with Indian swords, especially tulwars it is difficult if even possible. While hoping that our friend Olikara might offer insight on the characters inscribed in the blade, I would suggest they might be Urdu numerics, though I clearly am no linguist. The circle over three dots may represent the sun and the three dots, the trimurti, a numeric sequence key in symbolism and markings in many cultures. In the meantime, I look forward to full view of the weapon. All best regards, Jim

8th December 2007, 04:28 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Thanks very much Olikara! Now that we know the characters are not from any of India's alphabets, we need to think of what kind of symbols these might be. As I noted, the circle and three dots may represent sun and the trimurti...but in alignment with what? as they seem strategically aligned with the 'symbols'. All very best regards, Jim

10th December 2007, 01:07 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hello, Sorry for the delay but I posted more photos as soon as asked but so far nothing has happened. I keep getting a message saying I'm not authorised to do so despite registering some time ago. I have e-mailed the forum but so far no answer. Regards, Norman. P.S. No idea if this message will appear.

10th December 2007, 01:53 PM	#9
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 898	A few spoil it for the many Welcome, Norman. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people whose idea of doing business on the internet is to spam forums like these with ads for dubious products and services. In order to prevent the membership from being exposed to this refuse, we have had to implement a policy of putting new member's posts into a moderation queue where such ads can be killed before they appear. The moderators are all unpaid volunteers without a duty schedule and sometimes it can be a while before waiting posts get reviewed and cleared. You have now been promoted to allow instant posting. Sadly, things just seem to keep getting worse. Recently, someone used the PM function to spam their e-book to every member. In the past, we had allowed unconfirmed members to send PMs, as a long time lurker might wish to inquire about an item in the swap forum. The ability to send PMs is now limited to confirmed members. But, if we did not have these pre-emptive measures in place, these forums and your PM box would be packed with offers for amazing pharmaceuticals of dubious origin and the like.

10th December 2007, 08:02 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hello Lee, Many thanks for the welcome. I was getting rather concerned that members who had replied to this post would think that I was disinterested or rude by not replying to their questions. This is, I hope, now evident that this is not the case. My original post appeared very quickly but subsequent replies seem to have got stuck in a queue, I appreciate fully the need for caution with regard to new recruits and I hope those who did reply to my question understand the confusion. I have a few more bits and pieces which I think will be of interest to members and look forward to posting these in the future. Many thanks to those who have taken an interest in this post and I look forward to, hopefully, getting to the bottom of this mystery. Regards, Norman.

10th December 2007, 08:13 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Glad you got that sorted Norman Nice sword. I have a bayonet with similar script Jim, Ill take a photo, I belive my bayonet is inscribed in a form of Dari. Heres the scribed form of it although mine is inscibed in a squarer more angular fashion. Not certan but this sword inscription reminds me of some of it. I have noticed Afghan swords have that rivet as well although I dont know howe common it was elswhere. Spiral Attached Images

10th December 2007, 08:50 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Hi Norman, I'm really glad to see you posting here, and I'm glad you brought your interesting tulwar to us for discussion. I regret any difficulties encountered and am glad its resolved! I'm hoping you'll stay with us, and very much look forward to seeing the other items you mentioned as well. Thank you for showing us the entire weapon, which does remind me in seeing it overall, of tulwars which seem likely of far northern borders, close to Afghanistan. Spirals comment on having seen similar script on old Afghan weapons seems of course to have been very much on target, now that I see the sword. His comment on the centrally placed rivet in the chowk recalling Afghan swords is equally well placed (see 'good news, bad news tulwar'). The scabbard with heavy chape component and overall appearance seems Afghan, and further suggests tulwars which quite likely diffused from Northwest Frontier regions into Afghanistan. Although many of the weapons of Afghanistan are distinctly recognized, such as the paluoar, the Khyber knife, the lohar ...there is a diversity of weapons from congruent regions also such as the tulwars as noted, shashkas and developed weapons of British influence at the end of the 19th century. Spiral, thank you for including that script, it does seem that the tribal languages of these regions might reveal script similar to the marks on Norman's tulwar. Any thoughts on the floral motif along the blade? In looking at the circle and three dots, could this have to do with the 'cintamani' often appearing in Central Asian motif? I know sometimes it is three dots with lines below suggesting tiger stripes, but maybe this has some association? Lee, thank you for the explanation concerning the technical issues, and Norman thank you again for your patience! All very best regards, Jim