Unknown swords for Identification

Angus1783 · 19th March 2018, 04:14 AM

Please help to identify these swords that came into my possession recently.
The Larger of the two has on the blade Napoli and 1847 or 1867 and on the other side of the blade Magrino. The grip is of what I believe to be polished horn maybe bovine.
The scabbard is missing the throat which I assume was of brass to match the drag / The leather is dry but not to crumbly as of yet.

The smaller of the two has a lion head ( I think ) and horn ribbed grips and the only marking on this one is a 66 as shown in the photo. the scabbard is of leather and is also dry and a little crumbly, But it still has the drag and throat with stud for a frog.

Many thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge and help possibly to identify the these swords.

Angus1783 · 19th March 2018, 06:19 PM

more photos

Angus1783 · 21st March 2018, 11:43 PM

So it looks like this saber was from a member of the Swiss guard while Pope Pius XI was in the Vatican. The coat of arms for this Pope is displayed on this sword. so that leaves the small sword with a lion pommel to be identified.

fernando · 22nd March 2018, 05:19 PM

Say Augus,
Perhaps you are referring to Pope Pius IX, enthroned in 1846. Then the date 1847 and the coat of arms with the lions in the blade would make sense

.

Angus1783 · 23rd March 2018, 04:27 AM

Fernando,
Yes I had a typo I Meant Pope Pius IX
Although any visual documentation of these swords has been hard to come by.
Maybe a letter with photos to the Vatican armory curatoror could possibly yield some results (hopeful) It's worth a try.

fernando · 23rd March 2018, 09:15 AM

Good luck

.

canos · 3rd April 2018, 04:09 PM

Probably saber of a Neapolitan honor guard.
Magrino = Bladesmith
Place of production and year = Napoli 1847

Regards
Canos

canos · 4th April 2018, 04:31 PM

It could also be a saber of the Guards of Pius IX.

fernando · 4th April 2018, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canos

It could also be a saber of the Guards of Pius IX.

As previously thought ?

.

canos · 4th April 2018, 07:48 PM

Why so sensitive? I did not want to doubt your competence.
If you compare the blade engraving of the saber of the honor guard of Ferdinand II with the present engraving of the saber with the Pope coat of arms you will see the difference.
Then the question arises:
this is a saber of Honor Guard of Ferdinand II or a saber of the Pope's Guard.
That's a difference, ok?

fernando · 4th April 2018, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canos

Why so sensitive? I did not want to doubt your competence ...

Neither sensitive nor competent ... at all !
Don't take it wrong, canos; no reason for that !

canos · 4th April 2018, 09:01 AM

The honor guard was set up by Ferdinand II (Ferdinand II Charles (born January 12, 1810 in Palermo, † May 22, 1859 in Caserta) by decree on May 3, 1833. It consisted of young, very faithful men used in military or religious events.
The honor guard was part of the cavalry of the royal guard. It consisted of 8 squadrons, one for each province of the kingdom and one for the capital Naples.
For the honor guard, an extra saber was created - similar to the French Mle An XI.
The present saber was probably procured privately by an officer.

canos · 4th April 2018, 09:46 AM

Compare:

Tiziano Tonelli - Paolo Conti
Armi bianche napoletane 1800 - 1860
Side: 38 - 42

canos · 4th April 2018, 03:57 PM

It could well be a saber of the honor guard for Pope Pius IX.
The coat of arms on the blade points to it.
During the Revolutionary uprisings of 1848, which took place throughout Europe and in the Papal States, he fled with the Cardinals on November 24, after his Prime Minister Pellegrino Rossi had been murdered, to Gaeta on the coast of Naples and Sicily.

19th March 2018, 04:14 AM	#1
Angus1783 Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 14	Unknown swords for Identification Please help to identify these swords that came into my possession recently. The Larger of the two has on the blade Napoli and 1847 or 1867 and on the other side of the blade Magrino. The grip is of what I believe to be polished horn maybe bovine. The scabbard is missing the throat which I assume was of brass to match the drag / The leather is dry but not to crumbly as of yet. The smaller of the two has a lion head ( I think ) and horn ribbed grips and the only marking on this one is a 66 as shown in the photo. the scabbard is of leather and is also dry and a little crumbly, But it still has the drag and throat with stud for a frog. Many thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge and help possibly to identify the these swords. Attached Images

19th March 2018, 06:19 PM	#2
Angus1783 Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 14	more photos Attached Images

21st March 2018, 11:43 PM	#3
Angus1783 Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 14	Pope Pius XI So it looks like this saber was from a member of the Swiss guard while Pope Pius XI was in the Vatican. The coat of arms for this Pope is displayed on this sword. so that leaves the small sword with a lion pommel to be identified.

23rd March 2018, 04:27 AM	#5
Angus1783 Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 14	Thanks Fernando, Yes I had a typo I Meant Pope Pius IX Although any visual documentation of these swords has been hard to come by. Maybe a letter with photos to the Vatican armory curatoror could possibly yield some results (hopeful) It's worth a try.

3rd April 2018, 04:09 PM	#7
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	Sciabola per Guardie d'Onore Probably saber of a Neapolitan honor guard. Magrino = Bladesmith Place of production and year = Napoli 1847 Regards Canos

22nd March 2018, 05:19 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Say Augus, Perhaps you are referring to Pope Pius IX, enthroned in 1846. Then the date 1847 and the coat of arms with the lions in the blade would make sense .

23rd March 2018, 09:15 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Good luck .

4th April 2018, 04:31 PM	#8
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	It could also be a saber of the Guards of Pius IX.

4th April 2018, 07:48 PM	#10
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	Why so sensitive? I did not want to doubt your competence. If you compare the blade engraving of the saber of the honor guard of Ferdinand II with the present engraving of the saber with the Pope coat of arms you will see the difference. Then the question arises: this is a saber of Honor Guard of Ferdinand II or a saber of the Pope's Guard. That's a difference, ok?

4th April 2018, 09:01 AM	#12
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	The honor guard was set up by Ferdinand II (Ferdinand II Charles (born January 12, 1810 in Palermo, † May 22, 1859 in Caserta) by decree on May 3, 1833. It consisted of young, very faithful men used in military or religious events. The honor guard was part of the cavalry of the royal guard. It consisted of 8 squadrons, one for each province of the kingdom and one for the capital Naples. For the honor guard, an extra saber was created - similar to the French Mle An XI. The present saber was probably procured privately by an officer.

4th April 2018, 09:46 AM	#13
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	Compare: Tiziano Tonelli - Paolo Conti Armi bianche napoletane 1800 - 1860 Side: 38 - 42

4th April 2018, 03:57 PM	#14
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	It could well be a saber of the honor guard for Pope Pius IX. The coat of arms on the blade points to it. During the Revolutionary uprisings of 1848, which took place throughout Europe and in the Papal States, he fled with the Cardinals on November 24, after his Prime Minister Pellegrino Rossi had been murdered, to Gaeta on the coast of Naples and Sicily.