My first flyssa

FenrisWolf · 25th January 2007, 01:08 PM

I've wanted one of these since I first saw one listed on the website of a dealer in ethnic weapons. Recently this one surfaced on ebay, fortunately for me with a poor photo and a worse description:

What surprised me was the hilt. Virtually every other one I've seen had had a hilt completely covered in engraved sheet brass. The only other example I've seen with this type of construction was described as a 'tribal' variant.

So, any comment, ideas as to how old, the reason for the different hilt, whatever? I want to learn more about my collection!

Fenris

Emanuel · 25th January 2007, 01:21 PM

Nice one Fenris!
I've always wanted one...or many actually...

There have been a few of these plain-hilted ones discussed over the years, and it seems that some may simply have lost their brass cover and others simply lacked them altogether. Different tribes produced these swords, with varying quality.
As to age, you're generally looking at early-to-mid 19th century I guess. I think production generally stopped after the French conquest.
Here is a compilation I made of all the flyssa discussions on this forum: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3935 you'll find lots of info.

Emanuel

FenrisWolf · 25th January 2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Nice one Fenris!
I've always wanted one...or many actually...

There have been a few of these plain-hilted ones discussed over the years, and it seems that some may simply have lost their brass cover and others simply lacked them altogether. Different tribes produced these swords, with varying quality.
As to age, you're generally looking at early-to-mid 19th century I guess. I think production generally stopped after the French conquest.
Here is a compilation I made of all the flyssa discussions on this forum: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3935 you'll find lots of info.

Emanuel

Hi, Emanuel!

Thanks for the links, they made fascinating reading, both the history behind the blades and the speculation as to their use. I tried the different grips mentioned in one thread and was amazed what a difference a slight change of grip made. Then again one thing I always have to keep in mind when handling ethnic weapons is that I have very large hands to begin with (finding gloves that fit is a stone bitch), and combining that with the generally smaller-than-average hand size of most tribal warriors, at least in comparison to Europeans, and what may be very comfortable to them seems awkward to us.

Still and all a pleasnt morning's reading. Now I have to find another one, and another, and another....

katana · 25th January 2007, 07:25 PM

Hi Fenris Wolf,
I'm not 100 % certain ....but this could be a Yataghan (Yatagan) due to blade shape...or perhaps a Flyssa/Yataghan hybrid? I am sure others will correct me if I'm wrong. Nice piece

Emanuel · 25th January 2007, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

Now I have to find another one, and another, and another....

Hahaha when I'll be rich, I'll make sure to cover a whole wall with flyssa's

my favourite sword - though I've yet to own one.

David, I think this is a full flyssa, on account of the grip and bolster, very unlike the yataghan and very much like regular flyssa - it has the rivets, the camel head and the peculiar tang/bolster construction. I can see how the blade could be seen as a yataghan, it does have that forward curve...the more I think abou these, the more I am prepared to lay down arms and say that the flyssa is derived from Ottoman sources (both yataghan and the thin Circassian sabres).

Regards,
Emanuel

Emanuel · 25th January 2007, 08:29 PM

Hmmm now that I've started thinking about the flyssa again, I wonder at the peculiar bolster construction. The octogonal bit, which is actually not a bolster at all, but a continuation of the blade, is not seen on Caucasian sabres I believe, and certainly not on the Circassian sabres posted by Ariel. The yataghan does not have this feature either, always having the tang sandwitched between two scales.
The only weapons that come to mind that do have this strange feature are Indonesian - particularly the Acehnese rencong. It's weird, as it does not bolster the blade and it is not a tang...only a prelude to one. So I'll merrily hang on to this point to champion the independent development of the Flyssa

No other weapon in the Maghrib has this octogonal part, and no other Ottoman or even Islamic weapons in the west and near east have it either, except the khodme, which has a small one. What is the reason for its presence if the flyssa was adapted from the yataghan or the Circassian sabre? I would think that there is a precedent somewhere in berber history for this feature. I have another thought, but it's way too radical to mention right now

Any thoughts?

Emanuel · 25th January 2007, 09:10 PM

Nope, I'm wrong, there do seem to be yataghan with the weird "integral bolster" :http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3466 but then it is really small and it looks like that of a khodme

So here I'll ask Ham and Jim and others with experience on Ottoman weapons to say whether the octogonal "bolster" is found often enough on blades produced in Turkey/Asia-Minor/Caucasus.

25th January 2007, 01:08 PM	#1
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	My first flyssa I've wanted one of these since I first saw one listed on the website of a dealer in ethnic weapons. Recently this one surfaced on ebay, fortunately for me with a poor photo and a worse description: What surprised me was the hilt. Virtually every other one I've seen had had a hilt completely covered in engraved sheet brass. The only other example I've seen with this type of construction was described as a 'tribal' variant. So, any comment, ideas as to how old, the reason for the different hilt, whatever? I want to learn more about my collection! Fenris

25th January 2007, 08:29 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	More obsessive thoughts Hmmm now that I've started thinking about the flyssa again, I wonder at the peculiar bolster construction. The octogonal bit, which is actually not a bolster at all, but a continuation of the blade, is not seen on Caucasian sabres I believe, and certainly not on the Circassian sabres posted by Ariel. The yataghan does not have this feature either, always having the tang sandwitched between two scales. The only weapons that come to mind that do have this strange feature are Indonesian - particularly the Acehnese rencong. It's weird, as it does not bolster the blade and it is not a tang...only a prelude to one. So I'll merrily hang on to this point to champion the independent development of the Flyssa No other weapon in the Maghrib has this octogonal part, and no other Ottoman or even Islamic weapons in the west and near east have it either, except the khodme, which has a small one. What is the reason for its presence if the flyssa was adapted from the yataghan or the Circassian sabre? I would think that there is a precedent somewhere in berber history for this feature. I have another thought, but it's way too radical to mention right now Any thoughts? Last edited by Manolo; 25th January 2007 at 09:15 PM.

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25th January 2007, 01:21 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nice one Fenris! I've always wanted one...or many actually... There have been a few of these plain-hilted ones discussed over the years, and it seems that some may simply have lost their brass cover and others simply lacked them altogether. Different tribes produced these swords, with varying quality. As to age, you're generally looking at early-to-mid 19th century I guess. I think production generally stopped after the French conquest. Here is a compilation I made of all the flyssa discussions on this forum: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3935 you'll find lots of info. Emanuel

25th January 2007, 07:25 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fenris Wolf, I'm not 100 % certain ....but this could be a Yataghan (Yatagan) due to blade shape...or perhaps a Flyssa/Yataghan hybrid? I am sure others will correct me if I'm wrong. Nice piece

25th January 2007, 09:10 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nope, I'm wrong, there do seem to be yataghan with the weird "integral bolster" :http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3466 but then it is really small and it looks like that of a khodme So here I'll ask Ham and Jim and others with experience on Ottoman weapons to say whether the octogonal "bolster" is found often enough on blades produced in Turkey/Asia-Minor/Caucasus.