Some questions about Balinese hilt cup.

[Gustav]

Sometimes we encounter a Selut/Mendak construction on Bali Keris, which consists of a stem and a cup. Some questions about it.

Is it an older style, which perhaps had an integrated ring, like South Sumatran Selut or slightly similar constructions from East Java?

Was this style typical for some certain regions in Bali?

There are some older Uwer rings with a short stem. Would they have been parts of such stem/cup construction?

[Gustav]

Yes/perhaps/not likely?

Or no information at all?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Yes/perhaps/not likely?

Or no information at all?

Hello Gustav,

I've noticed this construction a few times before but I can't answer your question, sorry.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I did not reply to your questions immediately because I wanted to speak with two Balinese friends who know far more than I do about Balinese keris.

I now have their input.

In your posted image, the keris on the right does look as if it could be Balinese, however, I have never seen this cup-selut arrangement on any Balinese keris. Both my friends were of the opinion that this cup-selut feature was definitely not Balinese, one suggested that somebody who did not understand Balinese keris culture might have had it fitted.

There are some Balinese uwer that have a rather short stem. This short stem is intended to fit up inside the hilt.

I have seen similar cup-stem fittings on South Sumatera keris.

I cannot recall having seen this cup-stem feature, nor anything like it, on Javanese keris, East Javanese nor otherwise.

I have seen a cup fitting without stem on both Bugis & Peninsula keris, one of these cup fittings was a silver coin hammered to a cup shape to fit the bottom of the hilt.

[Gustav]

Sajen, thank you for you response!

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you for your response!

There is a Keris in Jensen's Krisdisk, which I at the beginning thought is a bit strange, with parts of perhaps different age and provenance mixed together.

Some time ago I came across a Keris with similar stem/cup construction, and by chance it has a similar Pendok. The whole thing is most likely from East-Java, but perhaps from Balinese people there, judging by the blade and Kinatah on it.

Then there is a picture of a Sunda(?) Keris, but the fit of hilt and Selut is poor, and the look of that hilt is recent or refurbished.

[Wijaya34]

Here is mine, it looks like it had a stem cup selut before itwas removed by a previous owner, the blade is from java. I was told that the the entire wrangka set originated in west java.
I also attach another keris that features a pendok +topengan similar to mine and a bebondolan like hilt from the met.
And also another keris that i came across a few years ago with a similar pendok, but no stem cup selut.

[Gustav]

Thank you, Wijaya34!

The middle one from previous post was given to MET in 1932, after owners death, so I doubt it also would have been put together by dealer from Jalan Ngagel Tama.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I would greatly appreciate it if you would very carefully read my previous posts again. It would be rewarding if you would try to clearly understand what I have written, you might find that I am not in disagreement with anything that you have written.

If my writing is insufficiently clear, I apologise for this, but I do try.

I have not commented upon any keris in any images posted after my post #12.

What I have written in respect of your keris shown in post #11 is this:-

"The complete keris that you have shown in post #11 looks to be a mixture of component parts, I cannot relate it to any other keris I remember having seen."

I have no reason to doubt that it has considerable age, nor that it was removed from its original location a long time ago.

To my eye, this keris does look to be a mixture of parts, or perhaps styles, & in fact this is far from unusual when we look at old keris that originated in locations that were not under the influence of a major society or centre of culture.

My remarks in respect of a Surabaya dealer of some years past refer to the two keris that are illustrated in Mr. Jensen's Kris Disc, one keris is "Fig 87 State Keris", the other Jensen keris is "Chapter 7 Pag 16". My opinion in respect of these two keris has been formed by what I saw in the stock of the Surabaya gentleman concerned on those occasions when I visited his premises.

Your keris shown in post #11, and the keris with dark sarung & dark bebondolan hilt shown in post #6 are both classifiable as kekandikan forms if we apply Balinese terminology & standards.

One thing about this variation in the forms of keris scabbards is this:- in times past the islands of the Malay Archipelago were covered in many places by dense forest, travel & communication was difficult, rivers were used as roads, and the influence of style & fashion in major population centres was very constricted.

In locations that were not under the direct influence of kraton, or puri, or trading entrepot, the dress used for keris often varied considerably from the style or form that inspired it. In a small, and or remote town or village, it was not unusual for the local lord to initiate his own form of a major style.

In kraton society in Jawa, and puri society in Bali, the members of the ruling line of descent would sometimes commission their own keris dress styles that varied a little from the usual, sometimes this variant for would be copied by other members of the court. A very good example of this is the difference between South Bali style & North Bali style.

Over the years I have encountered many examples of keris dress that have been difficult to relate to the major forms in use today & during the immediate past. I have also encountered many examples of complete keris that combined components & styles from a number of different locations.

There is nothing unusual about this. But the major forms are known, whilst variant forms are not known, & in some cases a variant form may well be a "one-off".

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you very much for your detailed response.

Yes, regarding my Keris from #11 - mixture of styles sounds much more reasonable then mixture of parts. A mixture of styles from today's perspective, where such forms are rarely encountered and everything has boiled down to a few easily recognizable models.

What I was struggling to understand, is:

- in #12 you write, you "have never seen any Javanese wrongko that is able to be classified as "kekandikan" using Balinese standards".

- in #17 you write "Your keris shown in post #11, and the keris with dark sarung & dark bebondolan hilt shown in post #6 are both classifiable as kekandikan forms if we apply Balinese terminology & standards."

Here I oncemore would like to note, that Keris with dark Bebendolan from #6 most likely, my Keris from #11 surely are coming from island of Java, perhaps from land of Java. In "The Javanese Keris", 2009, a related form is depicted on p. 83 in a Central Javanese context.

Otherwise I agree with your last post, and of course not only the last one.

[Gustav]

irrelevant