Spanish ?? I.D. Help Needed

Rikkn · 2nd January 2011, 10:46 PM

Need help with this one, I think it is Spanish. The guy I got it from about a year ago had some story about Cortes era explorer use. In pretty good condition, blade is 28" long. I took several pictures of the markings on the better side of the blade.

Rikkn · 2nd January 2011, 10:49 PM

More pictures. One of the marks looks like an anchor, my wife thinks it is a little stick person thing. Letters look like a "T", "O", Maybe an "M" & "L" in there too.

laEspadaAncha · 3rd January 2011, 12:57 AM

I think the vestigial pas d'ane would indicate a time frame (18th C.) much later than Cortes (16th C.). The markings you describe sound like a familiar makers mark... Try searching under "maker's marks" in the European arms & armor forum - there's a thread that documents many of the marks of the period.

Speaking of which, you might want to request one of the mods move your thread to the European weapons forum...

ETA: In looking through another book, it would seem other style elements, e.g., the symmetrical clamshell guard, might date this as earlier - maybe mid-late 17th Century?

laEspadaAncha · 3rd January 2011, 04:27 AM

I have it on good authority from a friend who viewed your photos that the sword is most likely of 18th Century origin (as indicated by the striated clamshells and hilt/pommel style) and is indeed Spanish (though he is of the opinion the blade was likely produced in Solingen). In particular, he is of the rather certain this is of the Spanish Colonial style associated with the Spanish Main and which is often attributed to Brazil. In fact, he helped identify a group of forty of these from a shipwreck off the coast of Panama several decades ago. Hope this helps.

fernando · 3rd January 2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikkn

More pictures. One of the marks looks like an anchor, my wife thinks it is a little stick person thing. Letters look like a "T", "O", Maybe an "M" & "L" in there too.

Hi Rikkn,
Yes, the anchor is an usual decor in Spanish (and not only) swords.
The T and the O seem to be followed by an L; these are usual initials for Toledo, a famous Spanish edged weapons center.
Let's move this thread to the European weapons forum; you may have further input on your sword in that section

Atlantia · 3rd January 2011, 10:46 PM

Rikkn,
Can we see a picture of the entire sword?
Proportions can be helpful in estimating a timeframe.

celtan · 4th January 2011, 02:44 AM

Might be a spanish blade married to a foreign hilt, or it could be completely Spanish. All that can be said for certain is it follows spanish style. It has a fully functional pas dáne, which places it from late 1670 t0 1770.

Heck, even the blade could be german made, as Solingen et al made good quality copies, including the now famous running-wolf mark from Maestre Perrillo, which paradoxically became Solingen's trademark.

The Toledo inscription is seen in various motifs, from Toledo Me Fecit, Toletum Me Fecit, En Toledo, En Toleto, En To, En Tol. The stop mark comes in all sizes and shapes, often a cross over a half circle or orb, and sometimes even a group of three crosses.

The clamshell small guard seems to say to me ~1720. The metallic grip may be a later replacement.

This one is a dainty thing, Cortes swords were brutish affairs made for cutting and slashing. For work, not show.

Congrats on your acquisition.

Hotspur · 4th January 2011, 04:09 AM

I thought the running wolf (master doggie) was a guild mark for Passau and virtually discontinued once Solingen became the source of many blades. Ready steel from the area being a prime motivation for blade making (and a lot more in time) there.

Cheers

GC

celtan · 10th January 2011, 04:09 AM

Could it be related to a pilgrimage made to St. James`(San Yago /Santiago Cathedral..? The shell motif is widely known in the christian world.

2nd January 2011, 10:46 PM	#1
Rikkn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ormond by the Sea, Fl Posts: 50	Spanish ?? I.D. Help Needed Need help with this one, I think it is Spanish. The guy I got it from about a year ago had some story about Cortes era explorer use. In pretty good condition, blade is 28" long. I took several pictures of the markings on the better side of the blade. Attached Images

2nd January 2011, 10:49 PM	#2
Rikkn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ormond by the Sea, Fl Posts: 50	More pictures. One of the marks looks like an anchor, my wife thinks it is a little stick person thing. Letters look like a "T", "O", Maybe an "M" & "L" in there too. Attached Images

3rd January 2011, 12:57 AM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I think the vestigial pas d'ane would indicate a time frame (18th C.) much later than Cortes (16th C.). The markings you describe sound like a familiar makers mark... Try searching under "maker's marks" in the European arms & armor forum - there's a thread that documents many of the marks of the period. Speaking of which, you might want to request one of the mods move your thread to the European weapons forum... ETA: In looking through another book, it would seem other style elements, e.g., the symmetrical clamshell guard, might date this as earlier - maybe mid-late 17th Century? Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 3rd January 2011 at 01:14 AM.

4th January 2011, 04:09 AM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 511	I thought the running wolf (master doggie) was a guild mark for Passau and virtually discontinued once Solingen became the source of many blades. Ready steel from the area being a prime motivation for blade making (and a lot more in time) there. Cheers GC Attached Images

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3rd January 2011, 04:27 AM	#4
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I have it on good authority from a friend who viewed your photos that the sword is most likely of 18th Century origin (as indicated by the striated clamshells and hilt/pommel style) and is indeed Spanish (though he is of the opinion the blade was likely produced in Solingen). In particular, he is of the rather certain this is of the Spanish Colonial style associated with the Spanish Main and which is often attributed to Brazil. In fact, he helped identify a group of forty of these from a shipwreck off the coast of Panama several decades ago. Hope this helps.

3rd January 2011, 10:46 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Rikkn, Can we see a picture of the entire sword? Proportions can be helpful in estimating a timeframe.

4th January 2011, 02:44 AM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Might be a spanish blade married to a foreign hilt, or it could be completely Spanish. All that can be said for certain is it follows spanish style. It has a fully functional pas dáne, which places it from late 1670 t0 1770. Heck, even the blade could be german made, as Solingen et al made good quality copies, including the now famous running-wolf mark from Maestre Perrillo, which paradoxically became Solingen's trademark. The Toledo inscription is seen in various motifs, from Toledo Me Fecit, Toletum Me Fecit, En Toledo, En Toleto, En To, En Tol. The stop mark comes in all sizes and shapes, often a cross over a half circle or orb, and sometimes even a group of three crosses. The clamshell small guard seems to say to me ~1720. The metallic grip may be a later replacement. This one is a dainty thing, Cortes swords were brutish affairs made for cutting and slashing. For work, not show. Congrats on your acquisition.

10th January 2011, 04:09 AM	#9
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Could it be related to a pilgrimage made to St. James`(San Yago /Santiago Cathedral..? The shell motif is widely known in the christian world.