Balinese kris from Polish Museum

wolviex · 13th February 2005, 08:58 AM

Thank you for your replies so far. I want to remind some of my questions asked above: what about wood and floral design - any ideas??

Thank you in advance

tom hyle · 13th February 2005, 09:52 AM

OK, first; Of course, I can't be sure with a photo, but I think that's magic marker. I'm serious; that's what the black stuff on the handle is; tell me it's not? If it is, you might get it off with careful solvents or a sharp cabinet scraper without staining or cutting the wood, because there appears to be an original built-up clear finish under it, but you probably don't want to mess with that, under your particular relationship to the piece,as a curator. The black on the sheath is a typical naturally occuring pattern in the wood; it looks like it might be caused by a tree disease (like many interesting patterns), but I don't really know; some woods tend towards colourful localized mineral deposites, too.
I've seen that mask before, on the sheath of an heirloom k(e)ris of an Indonesian restauranteur in Pennsylvania. He said it was there to guard the blade against evil spirits.
I don't know that iras gonja/gonjo iras k(e)ris were traditionally made to cut corners. Admittedly especially with kris sundang, one sees some that are pretty fancy in other ways, if nothing else. It has been my impression that such is kris is ritually/magically different; it is not bounded like an ordinary kris, not divided from the holder, the world; would this make it spiritless allowing the spirit to escape? Or would this have to do with some sort of possession/trance state? Nothing solid, mind you; impressions.
I think where you see a sword type meant as a cheaper version of kris (and one without kris' legal, ethical, religious, social, and magical limitations, as well) is the forward-leaning pedang with the double-edged tip; sorry, but I can only remember its obsolete "Western" name at the moment; the sword formerly known as tempius. Also, with gunong, especially large gunong. Some of these have a very kris-like angling and curvature.

Battara · 13th February 2005, 01:43 PM

I think the mask is that of deity Bonispatti. The craftmanship on the gold is magnificent. Reminds me of that found on true Mongolian and Tibetan pieces. And that is a lot of gold, thick, not a thin sheet. Are those diamonds? This would make sense since diamonds supposedly conteract poisons. I thought the hilt would have some gold on it as well......

tom hyle · 13th February 2005, 03:25 PM

I note a resemblance to a Phillipine (stylized) cobra pommel, which shape it also seems is sometimes used for sheath tips?....

tom hyle · 13th February 2005, 03:32 PM

Hmmm....the more I look at the dark part of the handle, the more I think it is some of that dark spotty grain, and was specially selected to be placed this way on this handle, to form a band around the middle. A nice piece of work, actually. The colour of the wood on the handle is not quite the same as that on the sheath, but that doesn't mean they're not the same specie, or that multiple species may show this.....it looks like a fungus.
You work in a museum. You mayby don't put that white writing on things anymore (?), but maybe you can tell us what it is and how to remove it?

VANDOO · 13th February 2005, 05:31 PM

THE WOOD IS NATURAL, THE PIECE SELECTED FOR THE HANDLE IS UNUSUAL IN HOW UNIFORM THE MARKING IS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN SPECIALLY SELECTED. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE WOOD USED BUT IT IS A VERY DESIRABLE TYPE AND PROBABLY HAS SPECIAL PROPERTYS AS WELL AS BEAUTY. AS TOM POINTED OUT SOME WOODS HAVE PATTERNS AND COLORS CAUSED BY CERTIAN TYPES OF FUNGI, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS WHAT CAUSES THE PATTERNS IN THIS TYPE WOOD OR NOT.
THE METAL WORK LOOKS TO BE OF VERY GOOD QUALITY TO ME , I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED A LARGER MEDAK WITH STONE SETS BUT PERHAPS IT MAY HAVE BEEN THE ONE THAT CAME ORIGINALLY WITH THE BLADE. THE SMALL FLOWER YOU SHOW APPEARS TO HAVE HAD A STONE SET AT SOME TIME ARE THERE ANY OTHER SETS? I THINK THE BLADE IS OLDER THAN THE GOLD FITTINGS AND WAS IMPORTANT TO THE OWNER AND WAS GIVEN THE GOLD FITTINGS LATER. IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HAVE THE STONES CHECKED TO SEE WHAT THEY ARE AS DIAMONDS WOULD INCREASE THE VALUE AND NEED FOR MORE INSURANCE. A BEAUTIFUL AND RARE KERIS AND GREAT PICTURES THANKS FOR SHAREING.

wolviex · 13th February 2005, 05:31 PM

Tom: thank you for your replies. I would like to reassure you, that white painting on the handle is not my work

. It was made many years ago, by my predecessors, and I'm sure you would be surprised, what ridiculous places on weapons were chosen to write an museum numbers. This is only white painting, and it's easy to wash off, so nothing to worry. But many weapons are defaced because of thoughtlessness

and are in need of conservators.

I think that handle and upper piece of sheath are made of the same wood, but of different tint of colour. I can't be sure it is natural or because of former cleanings. You wrote this black stains looks like fungus, so they should be natural. They look more natural at the sheath, but on the handle they look more like painted, in places even like painted with some kind of band, moistened with dye, and wrapped around the handle. It looks like this, but it's only the feeling of inexperienced man. And this magic, well, it would be intresting, but if you're worry about white painting on the handle, than the vision of my person with the scraper gnashing on the kris, should bring you to heart attack

Battara: this stones, I think, are rock crystals not diamonds. Well, you're next one talking about Bonaspatti/Bonispatti. But everyone have another idea about this deity. Anyway - what for was Bonispatti, or... what are his powers

?? What for the poisoned diamond were ??

wolviex · 13th February 2005, 05:40 PM

Vandoo:thank you. It would be great if somebody could find the name for this wood. So this stains are natural?!

Because you're second person who asked about diamonds, I'll ask in few days an expert are this rock crystals a diamonds

About the small flower - actually I doubt there could be any stone in there. It is 1 cm long and this little hole in it, is only 1mm big, and to shallow to put anything in there - or I'm just underestimating the art of indonesian craftsmen.

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13th February 2005, 08:58 AM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you for your replies so far. I want to remind some of my questions asked above: what about wood and floral design - any ideas?? Thank you in advance

13th February 2005, 09:52 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	OK, first; Of course, I can't be sure with a photo, but I think that's magic marker. I'm serious; that's what the black stuff on the handle is; tell me it's not? If it is, you might get it off with careful solvents or a sharp cabinet scraper without staining or cutting the wood, because there appears to be an original built-up clear finish under it, but you probably don't want to mess with that, under your particular relationship to the piece,as a curator. The black on the sheath is a typical naturally occuring pattern in the wood; it looks like it might be caused by a tree disease (like many interesting patterns), but I don't really know; some woods tend towards colourful localized mineral deposites, too. I've seen that mask before, on the sheath of an heirloom k(e)ris of an Indonesian restauranteur in Pennsylvania. He said it was there to guard the blade against evil spirits. I don't know that iras gonja/gonjo iras k(e)ris were traditionally made to cut corners. Admittedly especially with kris sundang, one sees some that are pretty fancy in other ways, if nothing else. It has been my impression that such is kris is ritually/magically different; it is not bounded like an ordinary kris, not divided from the holder, the world; would this make it spiritless allowing the spirit to escape? Or would this have to do with some sort of possession/trance state? Nothing solid, mind you; impressions. I think where you see a sword type meant as a cheaper version of kris (and one without kris' legal, ethical, religious, social, and magical limitations, as well) is the forward-leaning pedang with the double-edged tip; sorry, but I can only remember its obsolete "Western" name at the moment; the sword formerly known as tempius. Also, with gunong, especially large gunong. Some of these have a very kris-like angling and curvature.

13th February 2005, 01:43 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I think the mask is that of deity Bonispatti. The craftmanship on the gold is magnificent. Reminds me of that found on true Mongolian and Tibetan pieces. And that is a lot of gold, thick, not a thin sheet. Are those diamonds? This would make sense since diamonds supposedly conteract poisons. I thought the hilt would have some gold on it as well......

13th February 2005, 03:25 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I note a resemblance to a Phillipine (stylized) cobra pommel, which shape it also seems is sometimes used for sheath tips?....

13th February 2005, 03:32 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hmmm....the more I look at the dark part of the handle, the more I think it is some of that dark spotty grain, and was specially selected to be placed this way on this handle, to form a band around the middle. A nice piece of work, actually. The colour of the wood on the handle is not quite the same as that on the sheath, but that doesn't mean they're not the same specie, or that multiple species may show this.....it looks like a fungus. You work in a museum. You mayby don't put that white writing on things anymore (?), but maybe you can tell us what it is and how to remove it?

13th February 2005, 05:31 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE WOOD IS NATURAL, THE PIECE SELECTED FOR THE HANDLE IS UNUSUAL IN HOW UNIFORM THE MARKING IS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN SPECIALLY SELECTED. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE WOOD USED BUT IT IS A VERY DESIRABLE TYPE AND PROBABLY HAS SPECIAL PROPERTYS AS WELL AS BEAUTY. AS TOM POINTED OUT SOME WOODS HAVE PATTERNS AND COLORS CAUSED BY CERTIAN TYPES OF FUNGI, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS WHAT CAUSES THE PATTERNS IN THIS TYPE WOOD OR NOT. THE METAL WORK LOOKS TO BE OF VERY GOOD QUALITY TO ME , I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED A LARGER MEDAK WITH STONE SETS BUT PERHAPS IT MAY HAVE BEEN THE ONE THAT CAME ORIGINALLY WITH THE BLADE. THE SMALL FLOWER YOU SHOW APPEARS TO HAVE HAD A STONE SET AT SOME TIME ARE THERE ANY OTHER SETS? I THINK THE BLADE IS OLDER THAN THE GOLD FITTINGS AND WAS IMPORTANT TO THE OWNER AND WAS GIVEN THE GOLD FITTINGS LATER. IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HAVE THE STONES CHECKED TO SEE WHAT THEY ARE AS DIAMONDS WOULD INCREASE THE VALUE AND NEED FOR MORE INSURANCE. A BEAUTIFUL AND RARE KERIS AND GREAT PICTURES THANKS FOR SHAREING.

13th February 2005, 05:40 PM	#8
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Vandoo:thank you. It would be great if somebody could find the name for this wood. So this stains are natural?! Because you're second person who asked about diamonds, I'll ask in few days an expert are this rock crystals a diamonds About the small flower - actually I doubt there could be any stone in there. It is 1 cm long and this little hole in it, is only 1mm big, and to shallow to put anything in there - or I'm just underestimating the art of indonesian craftsmen.