Balinese kris from Polish Museum

wolviex · 12th February 2005, 03:34 PM

Thank you DAHenkel for this first reply. I must admit I liked this kris very much, but I didn't suppose it could be so good in your opinion. So now I'm waiting for others much more impatiently.
About "oversheath" - yes, you can be right about wrong orientation of this, take a look at third picture from the end, you can see the upper part doesn't fit perfectly to the sheath

And a "poor collection" - that does mean there are not many krises in National Musuem..., it doesn't mean they're not good

nechesh · 12th February 2005, 04:39 PM

Yes,this is certainly an extremely fine example of a gold Balinese over sheath and topengan, however, i would say it is a stretch to call this an extremely fine keris. The blade could be an old Bali blade or perhaps a Javanese one, but it is not very well made. It also appears to be gonjo iras (gonjo and blade are all one piece) which for me implies that when it was made corners were cut to lower costs. This is not the type of blade i would expect to see in this type of dress.Why they ended up together is anybody's guess. That being said the gold pendok and topengan are indeed beautiful and certainly worthy of museum display.
I believe the topengan is intended to be a demon, not a diety, ergo the fangs.
As Dave has suggested, you might want to remove the pendok and turn it around to the other side. For a minor restoration touch you could replace the material that is underneath it with a piece that covers the entire gandar. The wood of the gandar should not be showing through the carved floral work.

wolviex · 13th February 2005, 08:58 AM

Thank you for your replies so far. I want to remind some of my questions asked above: what about wood and floral design - any ideas??

Thank you in advance

tom hyle · 13th February 2005, 09:52 AM

OK, first; Of course, I can't be sure with a photo, but I think that's magic marker. I'm serious; that's what the black stuff on the handle is; tell me it's not? If it is, you might get it off with careful solvents or a sharp cabinet scraper without staining or cutting the wood, because there appears to be an original built-up clear finish under it, but you probably don't want to mess with that, under your particular relationship to the piece,as a curator. The black on the sheath is a typical naturally occuring pattern in the wood; it looks like it might be caused by a tree disease (like many interesting patterns), but I don't really know; some woods tend towards colourful localized mineral deposites, too.
I've seen that mask before, on the sheath of an heirloom k(e)ris of an Indonesian restauranteur in Pennsylvania. He said it was there to guard the blade against evil spirits.
I don't know that iras gonja/gonjo iras k(e)ris were traditionally made to cut corners. Admittedly especially with kris sundang, one sees some that are pretty fancy in other ways, if nothing else. It has been my impression that such is kris is ritually/magically different; it is not bounded like an ordinary kris, not divided from the holder, the world; would this make it spiritless allowing the spirit to escape? Or would this have to do with some sort of possession/trance state? Nothing solid, mind you; impressions.
I think where you see a sword type meant as a cheaper version of kris (and one without kris' legal, ethical, religious, social, and magical limitations, as well) is the forward-leaning pedang with the double-edged tip; sorry, but I can only remember its obsolete "Western" name at the moment; the sword formerly known as tempius. Also, with gunong, especially large gunong. Some of these have a very kris-like angling and curvature.

Battara · 13th February 2005, 01:43 PM

I think the mask is that of deity Bonispatti. The craftmanship on the gold is magnificent. Reminds me of that found on true Mongolian and Tibetan pieces. And that is a lot of gold, thick, not a thin sheet. Are those diamonds? This would make sense since diamonds supposedly conteract poisons. I thought the hilt would have some gold on it as well......

tom hyle · 13th February 2005, 03:25 PM

I note a resemblance to a Phillipine (stylized) cobra pommel, which shape it also seems is sometimes used for sheath tips?....

tom hyle · 13th February 2005, 03:32 PM

Hmmm....the more I look at the dark part of the handle, the more I think it is some of that dark spotty grain, and was specially selected to be placed this way on this handle, to form a band around the middle. A nice piece of work, actually. The colour of the wood on the handle is not quite the same as that on the sheath, but that doesn't mean they're not the same specie, or that multiple species may show this.....it looks like a fungus.
You work in a museum. You mayby don't put that white writing on things anymore (?), but maybe you can tell us what it is and how to remove it?

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12th February 2005, 03:34 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you DAHenkel for this first reply. I must admit I liked this kris very much, but I didn't suppose it could be so good in your opinion. So now I'm waiting for others much more impatiently. About "oversheath" - yes, you can be right about wrong orientation of this, take a look at third picture from the end, you can see the upper part doesn't fit perfectly to the sheath And a "poor collection" - that does mean there are not many krises in National Musuem..., it doesn't mean they're not good

12th February 2005, 04:39 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yes,this is certainly an extremely fine example of a gold Balinese over sheath and topengan, however, i would say it is a stretch to call this an extremely fine keris. The blade could be an old Bali blade or perhaps a Javanese one, but it is not very well made. It also appears to be gonjo iras (gonjo and blade are all one piece) which for me implies that when it was made corners were cut to lower costs. This is not the type of blade i would expect to see in this type of dress.Why they ended up together is anybody's guess. That being said the gold pendok and topengan are indeed beautiful and certainly worthy of museum display. I believe the topengan is intended to be a demon, not a diety, ergo the fangs. As Dave has suggested, you might want to remove the pendok and turn it around to the other side. For a minor restoration touch you could replace the material that is underneath it with a piece that covers the entire gandar. The wood of the gandar should not be showing through the carved floral work.

13th February 2005, 08:58 AM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you for your replies so far. I want to remind some of my questions asked above: what about wood and floral design - any ideas?? Thank you in advance

13th February 2005, 09:52 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	OK, first; Of course, I can't be sure with a photo, but I think that's magic marker. I'm serious; that's what the black stuff on the handle is; tell me it's not? If it is, you might get it off with careful solvents or a sharp cabinet scraper without staining or cutting the wood, because there appears to be an original built-up clear finish under it, but you probably don't want to mess with that, under your particular relationship to the piece,as a curator. The black on the sheath is a typical naturally occuring pattern in the wood; it looks like it might be caused by a tree disease (like many interesting patterns), but I don't really know; some woods tend towards colourful localized mineral deposites, too. I've seen that mask before, on the sheath of an heirloom k(e)ris of an Indonesian restauranteur in Pennsylvania. He said it was there to guard the blade against evil spirits. I don't know that iras gonja/gonjo iras k(e)ris were traditionally made to cut corners. Admittedly especially with kris sundang, one sees some that are pretty fancy in other ways, if nothing else. It has been my impression that such is kris is ritually/magically different; it is not bounded like an ordinary kris, not divided from the holder, the world; would this make it spiritless allowing the spirit to escape? Or would this have to do with some sort of possession/trance state? Nothing solid, mind you; impressions. I think where you see a sword type meant as a cheaper version of kris (and one without kris' legal, ethical, religious, social, and magical limitations, as well) is the forward-leaning pedang with the double-edged tip; sorry, but I can only remember its obsolete "Western" name at the moment; the sword formerly known as tempius. Also, with gunong, especially large gunong. Some of these have a very kris-like angling and curvature.

13th February 2005, 01:43 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,300	I think the mask is that of deity Bonispatti. The craftmanship on the gold is magnificent. Reminds me of that found on true Mongolian and Tibetan pieces. And that is a lot of gold, thick, not a thin sheet. Are those diamonds? This would make sense since diamonds supposedly conteract poisons. I thought the hilt would have some gold on it as well......

13th February 2005, 03:25 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I note a resemblance to a Phillipine (stylized) cobra pommel, which shape it also seems is sometimes used for sheath tips?....

13th February 2005, 03:32 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hmmm....the more I look at the dark part of the handle, the more I think it is some of that dark spotty grain, and was specially selected to be placed this way on this handle, to form a band around the middle. A nice piece of work, actually. The colour of the wood on the handle is not quite the same as that on the sheath, but that doesn't mean they're not the same specie, or that multiple species may show this.....it looks like a fungus. You work in a museum. You mayby don't put that white writing on things anymore (?), but maybe you can tell us what it is and how to remove it?