Horseman's 16th century Battle Axe

fernando · 4th December 2012, 06:25 PM

So good that you came in, A Senefelder

Surely this transmission of knowledge contributes with a great added value to the forum

PClemente · 4th December 2012, 11:14 PM

Many thanks for the input gents.
Any guess as to regional origin of the axe? I have seen another axe with a wooden haft featuring nails down the length, but the axe itself seemed distinctly Italian in form, as opposed to this axe which appears more Germanic(?).
Also, is there anyway to tell if the haft is the original or at least period, as opposed to a later addition?
Thanks again!

A Senefelder · 5th December 2012, 02:17 AM

For what its worth and strictly my opinion, this particular axe feels a little Eastern European to me. The transition to all steel construction of war axes and hammers was in full swing in the 16th century ( and had more or less already transitioned in mace construction by the end of the 15th century ) hardwood hafts for all three remained popular in the east right into the early 18th century ( not that all steel construction couldn't be found in the east but hardwood construction was just as common as all steel construction became more of less the rule in the west by the 17th century ).

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2012, 05:35 AM

This is far outside my normal fields, but this is an interesting looking axe, and I will say my thoughts corresponded with Alan with the East European feel. Actually I was thinking of the one in the saddle of 'The Polish Rider' by Rembrandt, probably because of the spiked poll. In looking further into that, what the 'rider' is actually carrying is a 'nadziak' which is actually a war hammer rather than axe, and this is clearly not a 'war hammer'.

I cannot resist noting the similarity of this axe to French boarding axes of 18th century, though the head is smaller. There really arent many resources on these in any depth, but my search was limited. I couldnt find references on English Civil War forces using battle axes, but certainly that does not mean they could not have been used, just not documented among the regularly employed weapons.

cornelistromp · 5th December 2012, 08:31 AM

this axe I "met" for the first time in London at Bonhams auction 22/04/2009 lot 82 and was described as european horseman's axe and probably!!! 17th century.
probably because these weapons are like daggers terribly difficult to place.

I'm far more at home in medieval swords and daggers, but my first impression was at that time and still is that it could be a French boarding axe from the 18th or 19th century.

herewith some 19th century examples

best,

Glaive203 · 5th December 2012, 01:42 PM

If one does a google image search for " czekan husarski " one will see the typical hussar axe/hatchet with a hammer opposite the axe head, but czekan with a bec de corbin were also used by the hussars of the Commonwealth, though much rarer. Whether the example is actually one of these I have no idea, but it does have their general shape.

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2012, 08:06 PM

As I had noted earlier, this axe initially caused me to think of Rembrandts "Polish Rider" because of the 'crows beak' type spike and recalling the war hammer the figure in the painting is carrying. In looking into this I found that the weapon was the 'nadziak' which was similar to and often called by the term of another form, 'czekan'. These and the 'obuch' another form are well described in "Polish War Hammers: Nadziak, Czekan and Obuch" by Mieczyslaw Paskiewicz (JAAS, Vol. VIII).

It seems to me these war hammers remained in use in Eastern Europe well through the 17th and into 18th centuries with the use of armor helmets and cuirass, as well as other components in various degree. I have long been under the impression that the 'battle axe' was not particularly popular by these times, and that penetrating or blunt force weapons like the mace or war hammer were much more effective.

The hammer (much as the mace) delivered powerful blows which would not only compromise armor plate, but the armor itself became the wounding element as the trauma was transmitted within. Not only would these cause broken bones or trauma, but as noted compromised the armor and could impair the viability of movement. The spike or 'crows beak' could also be used for devastating and deadly penetrating blows, and in the case of mail, of course the broken links also became wounding material.

The practicality of the axe head on the boarding axes was that this could be used for chopping and clearing in utilitarian requirements, at the same time be a deadly weapon.

The interesting drawing of the figure in the English Civil War wielding what appears could be a battle axe, it would seem might suggest a cut down halberd. I have not found record of English horsemen in that period using battle axes in sources I have checked, and would appreciate knowing of which sources might reflect that.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 5th December 2012, 08:26 PM

Axe's can be quite difficult to place.

Have a look at this completed eBay listing for an axe described as an Antique German fireman's axe:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-GE...-/360523052060

A Senefelder · 5th December 2012, 08:34 PM

This is an all steel horsemans axe of later 16th or earlier 17th century type that I used to own. It is of the type commonly seen in Western Europe and includes a belt hook. It is not particularlly long as I recall perhaps 20 inches which indicates to me that it was not necessarilly meant for downward strokes at opponents on the ground ( this would cause the rider to bend down in a somewhat awkward manner to do so which a longer sword would not ) but for use against a level opponent, ie. another mounted man. I would be currious to know the dimenstions of the original axe posted as the pic does give it the impression of being somewhat long in the haft. The fluke/backspike on this example was not only pointed but actually sharpened meaning that the edges of the fluke had been sharpened to an edge.

Atlantia · 5th December 2012, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As I had noted earlier, this axe initially caused me to think of Rembrandts "Polish Rider" because of the 'crows beak' type spike and recalling the war hammer the figure in the painting is carrying. In looking into this I found that the weapon was the 'nadziak' which was similar to and often called by the term of another form, 'czekan'. These and the 'obuch' another form are well described in "Polish War Hammers: Nadziak, Czekan and Obuch" by Mieczyslaw Paskiewicz (JAAS, Vol. VIII).

It seems to me these war hammers remained in use in Eastern Europe well through the 17th and into 18th centuries with the use of armor helmets and cuirass, as well as other components in various degree. I have long been under the impression that the 'battle axe' was not particularly popular by these times, and that penetrating or blunt force weapons like the mace or war hammer were much more effective.

The hammer (much as the mace) delivered powerful blows which would not only compromise armor plate, but the armor itself became the wounding element as the trauma was transmitted within. Not only would these cause broken bones or trauma, but as noted compromised the armor and could impair the viability of movement. The spike or 'crows beak' could also be used for devastating and deadly penetrating blows, and in the case of mail, of course the broken links also became wounding material.

The practicality of the axe head on the boarding axes was that this could be used for chopping and clearing in utilitarian requirements, at the same time be a deadly weapon.

The interesting drawing of the figure in the English Civil War wielding what appears could be a battle axe, it would seem might suggest a cut down halberd. I have not found record of English horsemen in that period using battle axes in sources I have checked, and would appreciate knowing of which sources might reflect that.

All best regards,
Jim

I should avoid reading your posts Jim!

Because you give me so much to think about that I'll be 'googling' for days to come!
Fantastic post and a Rembrandt as well!

As for the drawing of the Rupert from the English Civil war....
I wonder if the axe isn't more part of the political statement that the drawing represents?
His villainy is clear as he single handedly pillages the poor downtrodden city of 'Brimighani' (Birmingham) accompanied by his hellhound 'Boy' (An evil poodle with supernatural powers!).
Perhaps his 'axe' was part of the symbolism of the piece?

5th December 2012, 08:31 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	this axe I "met" for the first time in London at Bonhams auction 22/04/2009 lot 82 and was described as european horseman's axe and probably!!! 17th century. probably because these weapons are like daggers terribly difficult to place. I'm far more at home in medieval swords and daggers, but my first impression was at that time and still is that it could be a French boarding axe from the 18th or 19th century. herewith some 19th century examples best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 5th December 2012 at 12:34 PM.

5th December 2012, 08:06 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	As I had noted earlier, this axe initially caused me to think of Rembrandts "Polish Rider" because of the 'crows beak' type spike and recalling the war hammer the figure in the painting is carrying. In looking into this I found that the weapon was the 'nadziak' which was similar to and often called by the term of another form, 'czekan'. These and the 'obuch' another form are well described in "Polish War Hammers: Nadziak, Czekan and Obuch" by Mieczyslaw Paskiewicz (JAAS, Vol. VIII). It seems to me these war hammers remained in use in Eastern Europe well through the 17th and into 18th centuries with the use of armor helmets and cuirass, as well as other components in various degree. I have long been under the impression that the 'battle axe' was not particularly popular by these times, and that penetrating or blunt force weapons like the mace or war hammer were much more effective. The hammer (much as the mace) delivered powerful blows which would not only compromise armor plate, but the armor itself became the wounding element as the trauma was transmitted within. Not only would these cause broken bones or trauma, but as noted compromised the armor and could impair the viability of movement. The spike or 'crows beak' could also be used for devastating and deadly penetrating blows, and in the case of mail, of course the broken links also became wounding material. The practicality of the axe head on the boarding axes was that this could be used for chopping and clearing in utilitarian requirements, at the same time be a deadly weapon. The interesting drawing of the figure in the English Civil War wielding what appears could be a battle axe, it would seem might suggest a cut down halberd. I have not found record of English horsemen in that period using battle axes in sources I have checked, and would appreciate knowing of which sources might reflect that. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th December 2012 at 08:22 PM.

5th December 2012, 08:26 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Axe's can be quite difficult to place. Have a look at this completed eBay listing for an axe described as an Antique German fireman's axe: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-GE...-/360523052060 Attached Images

5th December 2012, 08:34 PM	#9
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	This is an all steel horsemans axe of later 16th or earlier 17th century type that I used to own. It is of the type commonly seen in Western Europe and includes a belt hook. It is not particularlly long as I recall perhaps 20 inches which indicates to me that it was not necessarilly meant for downward strokes at opponents on the ground ( this would cause the rider to bend down in a somewhat awkward manner to do so which a longer sword would not ) but for use against a level opponent, ie. another mounted man. I would be currious to know the dimenstions of the original axe posted as the pic does give it the impression of being somewhat long in the haft. The fluke/backspike on this example was not only pointed but actually sharpened meaning that the edges of the fluke had been sharpened to an edge. Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

4th December 2012, 06:25 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So good that you came in, A Senefelder Surely this transmission of knowledge contributes with a great added value to the forum

4th December 2012, 11:14 PM	#2
PClemente Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42	Many thanks for the input gents. Any guess as to regional origin of the axe? I have seen another axe with a wooden haft featuring nails down the length, but the axe itself seemed distinctly Italian in form, as opposed to this axe which appears more Germanic(?). Also, is there anyway to tell if the haft is the original or at least period, as opposed to a later addition? Thanks again!

5th December 2012, 02:17 AM	#3
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	For what its worth and strictly my opinion, this particular axe feels a little Eastern European to me. The transition to all steel construction of war axes and hammers was in full swing in the 16th century ( and had more or less already transitioned in mace construction by the end of the 15th century ) hardwood hafts for all three remained popular in the east right into the early 18th century ( not that all steel construction couldn't be found in the east but hardwood construction was just as common as all steel construction became more of less the rule in the west by the 17th century ).

5th December 2012, 05:35 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is far outside my normal fields, but this is an interesting looking axe, and I will say my thoughts corresponded with Alan with the East European feel. Actually I was thinking of the one in the saddle of 'The Polish Rider' by Rembrandt, probably because of the spiked poll. In looking further into that, what the 'rider' is actually carrying is a 'nadziak' which is actually a war hammer rather than axe, and this is clearly not a 'war hammer'. I cannot resist noting the similarity of this axe to French boarding axes of 18th century, though the head is smaller. There really arent many resources on these in any depth, but my search was limited. I couldnt find references on English Civil War forces using battle axes, but certainly that does not mean they could not have been used, just not documented among the regularly employed weapons.

5th December 2012, 01:42 PM	#6
Glaive203 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 12	If one does a google image search for " czekan husarski " one will see the typical hussar axe/hatchet with a hammer opposite the axe head, but czekan with a bec de corbin were also used by the hussars of the Commonwealth, though much rarer. Whether the example is actually one of these I have no idea, but it does have their general shape.