Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

Matchlock · 14th March 2009, 07:02 PM

More.

Matchlock · 14th March 2009, 07:07 PM

That's it for today.

Not to forget something that might be of special interest to you, Fernando, compadre mio - well, actually I assume that you are a member of this Society!

Michael

fernando · 5th April 2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Not to forget something that might be of special interest to you, Fernando, compadre mio - well, actually I assume that you are a member of this Society!

...

Incidently Michael, just incidently; i am not a fencer

.
But then, let me tell you that eventually one of their moderators is a brilliant member of this Vickingsword forum

.
Fernando

Matchlock · 6th April 2009, 03:39 PM

Obviously this mysterious guy is extremely brilliant, Fernando!

Michael

cornelistromp · 6th April 2009, 08:27 PM

Katzbalger dimensions.

1. the "swiss Katzbalger".(CF. Schneider-Stuber 1980 page 66-75)
In the Northern part of Switzerland was an isolated development of the Katzbalger with mostly open S-shaped guards and blade length's from
approx. 85CM - 118CM. different grips and pommel shapes were used.

2. the "German Katzbalger".
Horizontal S- to 8 shaped guillons of twisted Iron often chiseled and ending in knob-terminals.the grip almost always terminates in a cap fitting down over it. Alternatively the spreading end of the grip is made of metal and no true pommel exists. (CF Norman the rapier and the small sword hilt 3)
the 2 edged blades measure 50cm-80cm with a width of 3.5cm - 4.5cm.
(CF Seifert 1968 p461)
the Ricasso, if there is one, has the same width as the cutting part of the blade and has short fullers parallel to the edge of the blade. the same type of blade can also be found on other 15thC and 16thC swords. ( CF Seitz 1965
Taf. IX; Schneider-Stuber 1980, 71, kat NR 98 (1500-1530) Kat Nr. 103 (from Zeughaus Zürich, 1520-1550, 128 Kat. Nr. 180 (Bodenseeraum 1520-1550).

RE: Blade thickness
there is no general rule for it, I have Katzbalgers with very thin flexible blades and Katzbalgers with stiffer thicker blades in my collection.
I think it depends on the fighting style of the period/area and of course of it's owner.

Best regards

Cornelis tromp

Gonzalo G · 10th April 2009, 07:43 AM

!Thank you very much, Michael and Cornelis!
My best regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo G · 10th April 2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Incidently Michael, just incidently; i am not a fencer

.
But then, let me tell you that eventually one of their moderators is a brilliant member of this Vickingsword forum

.
Fernando

Actually, you don´t need to fence to be member of the forum. There are spaces for collectors and bladesmiths, also.
Regards

Gonzalo

Rick · 11th April 2009, 02:49 AM

I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ?

fernando · 11th April 2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ?

I wonder what could be wrong in (such) wandering

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2009, 04:04 PM

This thread is incredible!!! What outstanding material on katzbalgers, and what I think is most interesting is the indisputable role of these developed hilts in the origins of the Scottish baskethilt, one of my favorites of course.

Interesting asides on fencing.....I once fenced, a little.....but waaaayyy in my younger years. Interesting to know we have some representation of this fascinating art within our ranks here, and I would really like to have some serious discussion of the weapons used and their history. It has come up before but only briefly.
While the history of fencing theory goes, I believe, into the 16th century, the actual structured practice itself seems mostly later.

Getting back to the katzbalgers, interesting notes on determining the Swiss from German forms, and outstanding discussion gentlemen!!! I'm learning a lot here!!!

All the best,

' Z '

celtan · 15th March 2009, 02:49 AM

Art is such a window into the past...a poorman's Time Travel Machine.

Did you guys notice the existence of both round and sharp tipped KBs?

Thank You Very Much for sharing these, Michael.

Best Regards

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

More.

14th March 2009, 07:02 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More. Attached Images

14th March 2009, 07:07 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	That's it for today. Not to forget something that might be of special interest to you, Fernando, compadre mio - well, actually I assume that you are a member of this Society! Michael Attached Images

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6th April 2009, 03:39 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Obviously this mysterious guy is extremely brilliant, Fernando! Michael

6th April 2009, 08:27 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Katzbalger dimensions. 1. the "swiss Katzbalger".(CF. Schneider-Stuber 1980 page 66-75) In the Northern part of Switzerland was an isolated development of the Katzbalger with mostly open S-shaped guards and blade length's from approx. 85CM - 118CM. different grips and pommel shapes were used. 2. the "German Katzbalger". Horizontal S- to 8 shaped guillons of twisted Iron often chiseled and ending in knob-terminals.the grip almost always terminates in a cap fitting down over it. Alternatively the spreading end of the grip is made of metal and no true pommel exists. (CF Norman the rapier and the small sword hilt 3) the 2 edged blades measure 50cm-80cm with a width of 3.5cm - 4.5cm. (CF Seifert 1968 p461) the Ricasso, if there is one, has the same width as the cutting part of the blade and has short fullers parallel to the edge of the blade. the same type of blade can also be found on other 15thC and 16thC swords. ( CF Seitz 1965 Taf. IX; Schneider-Stuber 1980, 71, kat NR 98 (1500-1530) Kat Nr. 103 (from Zeughaus Zürich, 1520-1550, 128 Kat. Nr. 180 (Bodenseeraum 1520-1550). RE: Blade thickness there is no general rule for it, I have Katzbalgers with very thin flexible blades and Katzbalgers with stiffer thicker blades in my collection. I think it depends on the fighting style of the period/area and of course of it's owner. Best regards Cornelis tromp

10th April 2009, 07:43 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	!Thank you very much, Michael and Cornelis! My best regards Gonzalo

11th April 2009, 02:49 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ?

11th April 2009, 04:04 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	This thread is incredible!!! What outstanding material on katzbalgers, and what I think is most interesting is the indisputable role of these developed hilts in the origins of the Scottish baskethilt, one of my favorites of course. Interesting asides on fencing.....I once fenced, a little.....but waaaayyy in my younger years. Interesting to know we have some representation of this fascinating art within our ranks here, and I would really like to have some serious discussion of the weapons used and their history. It has come up before but only briefly. While the history of fencing theory goes, I believe, into the 16th century, the actual structured practice itself seems mostly later. Getting back to the katzbalgers, interesting notes on determining the Swiss from German forms, and outstanding discussion gentlemen!!! I'm learning a lot here!!! All the best, ' Z '