Kattara for comments

[Atlantia]

Thought you might be interested in the following.
A relic Kattara showing how the familiar short tang of the 'Kaskara' type trade blade is extended to the Omani block pommel.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I answer Atlantia below...Shukran

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thought you might be interested in the following.
A relic Kattara showing how the familiar short tang of the 'Kaskara' type trade blade is extended to the Omani block pommel.

Salaams Atlantia, We started out on this thread (Kattara for Comment) with the wrong terminology since during the discussion it has been proven that the straight sword is the Sayf and the curved is the Kattara therefor we are looking at a Sayf... and it is very interesting as it is clearly an old version... and as you say a Kaskara conversion. I suppose its a Kaskara- Sayf !
This is a most interesting morph/conversion and we assume it would have been tooled up with an Omani long hilt. I have no idea how to conclude its trade blade provenance or if it is locally made? I think that what we have here, however interesting, is only a converted hilt; no more no less.

I can imagine a Sayf or Kaskara on the edge of the Omani periphery being converted to Sayf, like your example... That is entirely plausible. I would, however, have expected a trail of Omani long Sayf to be scattered down the supply route if they came via the Red Sea or via Africa in great numbers but there are, apparently, none.

Certain publications state the Omani Trade Blade provenance (though I believe they have compounded their error in continuing to copy that mistake) however none of the European people (visitors to Oman) quoted in this thread #164 nor the advisor to government affairs in Zanzibar around 1900(W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor) nor any mention in "British/French relations in the Indian Ocean" By Dr Sheikh Sultan al Qassimi" which focusses on Muscat, India and Zanzibar spanning the supposed time of the European Trade Blade's appearance..make any reference to European Trade Blades for Oman. No proof exists of blades coming from India, Persia, Sri Lanka, or Yemen despite the older blade carrying the name of Sayf Yamani.
Proof exists of local Omani manufacture though none for imported blades. Not yet.

This is an excellent addition to the thread and is in many ways the essence of what we are looking at ..."The European Trade Blade conundrum".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

These stone sculptures abound in Portugal. At least some thirty of these statues were found in various places, some of them with epigraphic texts. They represent Galaico Lusitanian warriors. Estraban (63-24 BC) writes about the Lusitanians, mentioning that it was said that they were good ambushers and track followers, using shields two feet wide, of concave shape and straped to the body, having no handles... and that these were used together with a dagger or a gladius.

.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

These stone sculptures abound in Portugal. At least some thirty of these statues were found in various places, some of them with epigraphic texts. They represent Galaico Lusitanian warriors. Estraban (63-24 BC) writes about the Lusitanians, mentioning that it was said that they were good ambushers and track followers, using shields two feet wide, of concave shape and straped to the body, having no handles... and that these were used together with a dagger or a gladius.

.

Salaams fernando ~ I had no idea that the Portuguese were originally Celtic. I note that they were "Romanised" in the second century and wondered if their weapon systems carried on or were superceded by the Roman. I think the Greek short sword is likely to be responsible for the transmission via the Abassids to this peninsula...Oman...via the Abassid garrisoned and fighting here and because the Abbasids were obsessed with everything Greek. Thank you for your input, which is, as always, thought provoking and interesting.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Straight Omani Sayf.

Salaams all, I have not yet seen a single straight Omani Sayf with a European mark on it save one with a fake running wolf mark.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Please delete. Was answered above.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I had no idea that the Portuguese were originally Celtic. ...

So you never wondered how we have some regions where they play the bagpipe

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I note that they were "Romanised" in the second century ...

Did you say "Romanized" or "Omanized" ? ... just a joke
Quite a few folks, since Naenderthal and followed by Modern man, stood in the queue to leave their ADN in the Peninsula ... some more to the South, others more to the North and even others by the Coast, like the Phoenitians in Balsa, now called Tavira, in Southern Portugal.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... and wondered if their weapon systems carried on or were superceded by the Roman.

The usual swaps, as always happens when a people crosses with another. One that became quite famous was what the Romans admired and called Gladius Hispaniensis (at the time they named the whole Peninsula as Hispania). This was the so called Falcata Iberica (Ensis Flacatus); its eficiency in combat and its temper were so good that it took the Romans to reinforce their shield rims and body armour, during the second Punic wars and later conquest of Hispania. It is highly probable that their Gladius had its later structure and form influenced by this Iberian sword.
I am too lazy to search what weaponry we might have copied from the Romans, besides their influence in all other fields ... house roof tiles, roads, aqueducts, you name it. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I think the Greek short sword is likely to be responsible for the transmission via the Abassids to this peninsula ...

If you are referring to the kopis, such actually wasn't brought over as, swords of this (sickle) type, were developed in various regions by local initiative, as also happened with the Nepalese Kukri.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... the Abbasids were obsessed with everything Greek...

The Arabs only came around by the 8th century, after another long queue, starting by the Romans and, after their decadence, a series of Germanic branches, Suevos, Vandals and lately the Visigods.
But naturally we adopted some of their weapon shapes and possible entire models. Moor cavalry performance and weapon resources were one of the best. In the other fields, i wonder if their influence was even greater than that of the Romans ... Agriculture, Irrigation, Fruit variety, Medicine, Poetry, to name a few.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... Thank you for your input...

Nothing to thank for. My post was only a small addition to what was said by Ariel and Lew in that, parrying devices (shields, bucklers) were used by all men during all time, each one according to their intuition.

Sorry guys, for the extensive fait divers ... and for delocalizing a bit the epicenter of the topic .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

So you never wondered how we have some regions where they play the bagpipe


Did you say "Romanized" or "Omanized" ? ... just a joke
Quite a few folks, since Naenderthal and followed by Modern man, stood in the queue to leave their ADN in the Peninsula ... some more to the South, others more to the North and even others by the Coast, like the Phoenitians in Balsa, now called Tavira, in Southern Portugal.


The usual swaps, as always happens when a people crosses with another. One that became quite famous was what the Romans admired and called Gladius Hispaniensis (at the time they named the whole Peninsula as Hispania). This was the so called Falcata Iberica (Ensis Flacatus); its eficiency in combat and its temper were so good that it took the Romans to reinforce their shield rims and body armour, during the second Punic wars and later conquest of Hispania. It is highly probable that their Gladius had its later structure and form influenced by this Iberian sword.
I am too lazy to search what weaponry we might have copied from the Romans, besides their influence in all other fields ... house roof tiles, roads, aqueducts, you name it.


If you are referring to the kopis, such actually wasn't brought over as, swords of this (sickle) type, were developed in various regions by local initiative, as also happened with the Nepalese Kukri.


The Arabs only came around by the 8th century, after another long queue, starting by the Romans and, after their decadence, a series of Germanic branches, Suevos, Vandals and lately the Visigods.
But naturally we adopted some of their weapon shapes and possible entire models. Moor cavalry performance and weapon resources were one of the best. In the other fields, i wonder if their influence was even greater than that of the Romans ... Agriculture, Irrigation, Fruit variety, Medicine, Poetry, to name a few.


Nothing to thank for. My post was only a small addition to what was said by Ariel and Lew in that, parrying devices (shields, bucklers) were used by all men during all time, each one according to their intuition.

Sorry guys, for the extensive fait divers ... and for delocalizing a bit the epicenter of the topic .

Salaams Fernando,
Once again we are endebted for this interesting excursion, however, as Lew and I have both indicated; the Terrs and Sayf insofar as technology transfer is concerned is a bridge too far at this time.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all. As a note to Forum as an update I advise the following?;

* The Straight Omani Sword is called Sayf.
* The Curved Omani sword is called Kattara.

The Omani Sayf has two parts to its life:
1. As an old Omani Battle Sword (Sayf) (affectionately known as Sayf Yamani) with turned down quillons pointed pommel short handle, stiff thick wing-like in "cross section blade construction" and pointed. This was a stab-slash-chop weapon, reigning supreme in Oman since arguably the mid 8thC AD (751)and in the Abbasid Style... until it was "apparently" superceded by a European Trade Blade in approximately the 18thC. A.D.
Both systems used the Buckler Shield. Both are called Sayf.

2. As the 18thC European Trade Blade replacement weapon and retaining the Buckler Shield inherriting the name Sayf; The sword was very different from its fore runner and comprised of a Tang Pommel and Long Blade as "all in one" construction and very flexible... bending almost through 90 degrees from the point and spatula tipped on a very long handle. No quillons. This was a slash and snick weapon. It continues to be produced locally today.

Vital to the understanding of the weapons history is the method by which it was passed down the generations through the Funoon an enacted pageant comprising life events; trade, farming, seafaring and war.

The flexible sword introduced at 2 above fell into that category of parade and dance item required in the Funoon pageant whilst retaining a fighting style and mimiced as a kind of combat form in the funoon called Razha and Ayaalah.. or sword dance. An exponent must be able to move quickly and buzz the sword by various ingenious flicks of the wrist where the blade can be used almost like a whip and when used as a group creates a very menacing ritual. Important that a blade be flexible and not stiff. When selecting a sword the first thing an exponent looks for is the flexibility... Trying to make a stiff sword hum and buzz is impossible ...
If its not flexible its not an Omani Sayf of approx. 18th C or after.

Swords coming from the Egyptian Mamluke era down the Red Sea and influencing Saudia and Yemeni weapons look similar to Omani Sayf but as recorded in the Yemeni Military Museum by Michael Blalocks Arabian Swords #1 they are thick inflexible blades and pointed. Similar blades are at # 47 and # 81 of this thread. I believe that this is purely coincidental and in keeping with Abassid> Mamluke >Ottoman technology copy.

I have examined the gunmark upon an Algerian weapon at this thread #176 and it is identical in form to the Michael Blalock item which in turn is similar to the weapon at # 1 on this thread. Though on reflection I think that one is Omani with odd out of area stamps; probably fake. They may be Red Sea hybrids but they are not Omani. I will repeat my comment that this does not mean that an Omani person did not own or use a variant transferred to an Omani long handle but that that type of sword is not of Oman. Rehilting does not automatically change the ethnographic origin of a sword if at all..

It is known that European Trade Blades flooded into Africa and many examples exist, however, no proof other than mention of European Trade Blades in Oman from various sources and publications (which I believe are entirely routinely plagiarisms of fact copied by authors and museums for the last 200 years)

This debate therefor runs into a conundrum. 18thC Omani Sayf; European Trade Blades; Fact or Fiction?

On Fact;
I find nothing to substantiate the theory that Oman imported European Trade Blades except in the reference books noted above and verbatum rolling out of same same theory from museums and others.

On Fiction;
1. No genuine European Sword Blade Marks have yet been found on any Omani Sayf viewed. Conversely many blades have local marks and or copies of Raj stamps. The odd weapon has a running woolf at Muscat Museum though it is fake.
2. No actual literature providing proof exists.
3. None of the visiting European dignatories mentioned in this thread and over the last two centuries have ever mentioned European Trade Blades when confronted by Omani Sayf... and the advisor to the Governor at Zanzibar from about 1900 though he mentions Omani Swordsmen and the dancing routine does not substantiate their origin. Surely he would have known?
4. No peripheral signs ~ The Red Sea variants are totally different; being thick, pointy and unflexible save for perhaps 5 degree bendability. Should we not expect to find Omani Swords littering the museums and souks in the Red Sea area? European Trade Blades are scattered all over Africa but Omani Sayf...nowhere else except Oman.
5. Local manufacture is proven in Ras Al Khaimah and Al Ain and likely to be substantial in Nizwa well known for smelting copper and well advanced in bellows useage for iron and steel items and agricultural tools. If they were making Sayf here why would they need imported weapons?
6. As a statement of pure conjecture I feel that a sword which had gained Iconic and virtual Heraldic symbolism up to about 200 years ago ~ and having been a system in place previously for 1000 years or more ~ for it to be suddenly replaced by a European Trade Blade makes no sense to me at all. Therefor I add that as a comment to the bewildering nature in this conundrum now at the core of research on the subject..

Pictured below are the Old Sayf, centre, with turned down quillons flanked by the new version in the 18thC format.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; It seems that there were actually 2 blades replacing the old Sayf : One in the 17th C (perhaps) and the other in the 18thC debated here. It seems that the 17th C blade(which I have not found an example of yet) was a thin variant of the old blade and was fitted to the old hilt. Whilst this may turn out to be myth I mention it as a note.