The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th February 2014, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i can see why Rick might have been confused by your post Ibrahiim. You write "This description struck me as pertinent…." and then end that sentence with a link before quoting from a completely different source which you do not credit. While i do not wish to imply that you were being purposefully deceptive here i do hope you can see how this might seem misleading to some.
It should also seem obvious that simply because one can find numerous references to the kastane hilt as a "dragon" does not in anyway prove that ANY of these hilts were ever intended to be dragons or anything other than a lion. How many times misinformation is repeated on the internet does not in turn make these misinterpreted statements "facts" and they cannot really be used to support any theory that the pommels of kastanes are meant to represent anything other than a lion. Even one of your "dragon" descriptions goes into detail about the mane of the "dragon", not a detail usually ascribed to dragons throughout various cultures. The stylized manes on these creatures should be a clue that these are indeed lions being depicted on these pommels. Certainly there is some "artist license" involved in the depiction of the lion which is proofed out by the variants that we find in existence, but i seriously doubt that court artists would be permitted to change the actual symbolism of the hilt by depicting some completely different creature than what is traditionally designated for the form. I have yet to see a true kastane pommel that cannot clearly be seen to be meant as a stylized lion head.

Salaams David, Certainly no deception on my behalf. I simply illustrate that learned bodies such as The Victoria and Albert describe the hilt in different ways and it is not my intention to go into why they think a dragon has a mane.. After all you may view the hilt as a lion like shape but many other specialists use a different explanation including prestigious museums etc.

As I also point out I prefer to leave the discussion about Lion or whatever else it may be to the experts unless you know for certain that it is created from a Lion..and when such an interesting side topic exists as yet to be unfurled as we analyse the pre Portuguese period and look into the swords historical and religious influences.

What is also interesting about Ricks quote from Caravana is the part that is missing .. The Bibliography... which mentions a certain king whose Kastane is now in museum in Sri Lanka but which is unclear as to which king?... and that turns out to be the 7th in succession in power; at the same time as the Portuguese early period. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lkawgw/gen3000.html King Bhuvanaikabahu the 7th.

I do, however, agree that my sentence structure was open to misinterpretation and I have corrected that mistake and though I had lost the reference I have now checked my notes, discovered the reference and placed the quote correctly using as close a professional structure as I can; I think near enough to the Harvard Referencing system as we need apply.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David · 5th February 2014, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David, Certainly no deception on my behalf. I simply illustrate that learned bodies such as The Victoria and Albert describe the hilt in different ways and it is not my intention to go into why they think a dragon has a mane.. After all you may view the hilt as a lion like shape but many other specialists use a different explanation including prestigious museums etc.

Perhaps you have missed my point Ibrahiim, which was more about the WAY you presented the information than the information itself.
I would be more inclined to view prestigious museums such as the Victoria and Albert as "generalists" rather than "specialists". They are a museum of art and design that houses almost 5 million objects ranging from fashion and David Bowie to gothic art and photojournalism. I don't think that it would be fair to say that they are "specialists" on the kastane simply because they are a well established museum.
I am not sure what "experts" you are referring to that you would rather leave this discussion to, however i would like to point out that the zoomorphic symbolism of the pommel is the very first discussion point Jim brings up in his recap on the past discussions and i have only posted here because YOU yourself have brought the subject up yet again.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th February 2014, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps you have missed my point Ibrahiim, which was more about the WAY you presented the information than the information itself.
I would be more inclined to view prestigious museums such as the Victoria and Albert as "generalists" rather than "specialists". They are a museum of art and design that houses almost 5 million objects ranging from fashion and David Bowie to gothic art and photojournalism. I don't think that it would be fair to say that they are "specialists" on the kastane simply because they are a well established museum.
I am not sure what "experts" you are referring to that you would rather leave this discussion to, however i would like to point out that the zoomorphic symbolism of the pommel is the very first discussion point Jim brings up in his recap on the past discussions and i have only posted here because YOU yourself have brought the subject up yet again.

Salaams David, The specific parameters of this thread are indeed outlined at #1 and in each of the three categories of recommended study,(Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism) the design features are dominant.

Naturally when viewing the key area of early European involvement it is important to realise that there are three prisms to look through ... one for each invading nation. Getting beyond the 16th C is in itself wrought with inconsistency not least because of the socio-political nature of the beast.(excuse pun)

The Lion Makara debate has been modified; replaced by a more carefully considered, balanced overview and in sympathy with the religious and cultural traditions of Sri Lanka. The fact is we don't know what form the artists were considering at the time nor whether the artists were working alone or with Portuguese artisans on these Kastane. Can you say that it is a Lion? Can you say you are sure what the artisans were doing in the Kotte Royal Workshops 500 years ago? If so, please do prove it.

It may be noted that simply viewing the hilt from the western ideal of Zoomorphic fails to address the full story since some of the Deities are half humanoid; take for example the little face on the hand guard (half human half crocodile at #2 above) thus they take the form more of the demi-god..though that is also a generalization and since many of the deities transform, change and re enter the equation as a completely different monster type... depending upon what phase they are depicting.

Another half humanoid monster "Kirtimukha" sometimes decorates the Kastane Rainguard see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=indian+armour at #56.

Nevertheless the in-depth study of pre 1505 AD Portuguese involvement has yet to be administered on this thread but research and notes are well in hand. What form the hilt actually is may be impossible to absolutely determine but eventually this may be part of the intrigue and only really possible with the insight of some Guru and historical master specializing in Buddhist/ Hindu religious expression.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2014, 06:15 PM

Beautifully added material Ibrahiim, and I do appreciate you following the course of questions I hoped to address here.
No worries on the relatively inconsequential slip in wording as the corpus of material you are searching is of considerable volume and trying to present that much data can be daunting . I commend your courtesy in responding to comments pointing out any errors, and it is always comforting to know that these are being carefully observed to avoid any misperceptions in the data being presented.

I very much agree that it is profoundly difficult to consider what might be in the minds of artists and artisans or long ago, and all we can do is try to consider contextual material and speculate on plausible possibilities.
The concept of therionthropic human/animal beings extends far into prehistory, case in point the 'sorcerer of Les Trois Freres in the cave in France of some 30,000 years ago (attached). We cannot know the exact meaning or metaphoric concept of what this painting meant, but we believe he was a shamanic figure and with totemic value in his characterization.

David · 6th February 2014, 06:54 PM

Just an interesting aside Jim, we may need to wonder what was in the mind of Henri Breuil when he made that sketch of the "Sorcerer" back in the 1920s when we look at an actual photograph of the cave drawing made years later.

http://www.strangehistory.net/2011/0...-art-cobblers/

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2014, 09:42 PM

To continue my earlier post from an outside interruption, the point I was alluding to with the mysterious therionthrope in Trois Freres was of course that these curious figures, just as in considerable ethnographic iconography or for that matter even medieval heraldry etc it is often hard to determine what is actually represented . We can of course speculate using known contexts associated with the example being considered, but these things can seldom be proven with any large degree of certainty.

It seems well substantiated that the ancient mythology of Sinhala has considerable focus on the lion, therefore seemed well in place by the time of trade contacts and later colonial incursions. With this it seems quite reasonable to assume that the sinha (lion) would be represented on the pommel of these hilts . As with many forms of Asian iconography, the embellishment and flourishes extend far beyond what western interpretations of various creatures might expect.

Since there seem to be variations on the appearance of the creatures featured on the pommel of different examples of the kastane, we have clearly instances of artistic license possible, as well as potentially other influences affecting the portrayal of the figures on the hilts.

I believe the analysis of these varying forms are more to the artistic aspects iconographically and individual examples should of course be attended to on their own merits and unique features.

Returning to the larger scope of our discussion, what we are trying to determine is just how long ago the use of figured iconography began its use on Sinhalese swords, specifically the kastane. Just how far back does the kastane hilt as familiar today go back in Sinhalese history?

Until the discussions on the previous thread ('Sinhalese/Sri Lankan Swords) I had assumed the Sendai Museum sword to be one of the earliest examples of the hilt (c.1600-20) but interesting instances farther back were presented by Prasanna. Hopefully we can gain more data and perhaps images of those.

The Sendai (Hasekura) example (Keicho Mission) for Date Masamune of Japan has proven most interesting with the question of exactly where it was obtained by Hasekura. While it was speculated that this sword was acquired from Philip III of Spain while the mission was in Madrid, it is now my understanding that this was probably acquired in the Philippines in the two years Hasekura was there. Rather than being a 'presented' item, this seems to have been more an acquired item along with the kris with it. This seems more in line with the lack of documented narrative concerning these items.

The questions which intrigue me on this particular kastane are more toward the interesting blade, of somewhat falchion form and with the 'monster' head at the blade peak which indeed does correspond to similar creature detail on a glaive type Chinese blade posted by Vandoo. We know of course that the Philippines as a trade entrepot had presence from Sri Lanka, China, Indonesia and of course the major powers .
Could this kastane have been mounted with this blade in the Philippines and been acquired by Hasekura as an interesting novelty to present to the Date?

These are the questions I hope to follow here. The dialogue on the artistic representation on kastane hilts is always interesting, but I think that its subjective nature often creates a certain volatility. Just the same, these figures are of course an integral part of the history of this weapon, and should be approached with a great deal of patience as differing views are examined.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th February 2014, 05:19 AM

Salaams Jim,

Thank you for bringing the thread back to track. Your suggestion of the two weapons being procured not presented is well placed as no proof appears in the meetings of Hasekura on his travels having been presented with these items moreover there are several details indicative of the purchase or acquired nature of these weapons viz;

Japan in Philippine history
By Ambeth R. Ocampo
Philippine Daily Inquirer
10:42 pm | Thursday, October 31st, 2013

Quote"Hasekura Tsunenaga was a Japanese samurai who was received in Mexico, Spain, the Vatican, and the Philippines as a Spanish ambassador in a romantic seven-year journey. He was given an audience by King Philip III in Madrid, was baptized at the Real Monasterio de Descalzas Reales where the Duke Lerma stood as ninong, then was received by Pope Paul V and granted honorary citizenship by the City of Rome.

Hasekura’s last stop was Manila, where he wrote a cheerful letter to his son in 1619 saying he was shopping and preparing to sail home. The original letter is displayed in the Sendai City Museum together with an Indonesian kris and a dagger from Sri Lanka that Hasekura acquired in the Philippines. I was disappointed that no Philippine artifacts were extant. Not in the exhibition are archival documents on the Hasekura mission from the Archivo General de Indias in Sevilla written during Hasekura’s stay in Manila: an inventory of presents sent to the Shogun by the Governor-General of the Philippines, reports from the Bishop of Cebu and the Archbishop of Manila regarding the rivalry between the Jesuits and the other religious orders doing missionary work in Japan, and reports on the continued persecution of Christians in Japan".Unquote

There is an interesting background description to the Kris at forum on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=kris+kastane by A.G. MAISEY that is essential background reading and from which I have recovered the picture below.

Wikepedia carries the same artwork and under it states that they were "acquired" from The Philippines. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

See also http://www.japanartsandcrafts.com/8212.html Indonesian kris and Ceylonese dagger (acquired in the Philippines), presented by Hasekura to Date Masamune upon his return;

Quote"Sendai City Museum Hasekura reported his travels to Date Masamune upon his arrival in Sendai. It is recorded that he remitted a portrait of Pope Paul V, a portrait of himself in prayer (see website), and a set of Ceylonese and Indonesian daggers acquired in the Philippines, all preserved today in the Sendai City Museum."Unquote

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

6th February 2014, 06:15 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	Beautifully added material Ibrahiim, and I do appreciate you following the course of questions I hoped to address here. No worries on the relatively inconsequential slip in wording as the corpus of material you are searching is of considerable volume and trying to present that much data can be daunting . I commend your courtesy in responding to comments pointing out any errors, and it is always comforting to know that these are being carefully observed to avoid any misperceptions in the data being presented. I very much agree that it is profoundly difficult to consider what might be in the minds of artists and artisans or long ago, and all we can do is try to consider contextual material and speculate on plausible possibilities. The concept of therionthropic human/animal beings extends far into prehistory, case in point the 'sorcerer of Les Trois Freres in the cave in France of some 30,000 years ago (attached). We cannot know the exact meaning or metaphoric concept of what this painting meant, but we believe he was a shamanic figure and with totemic value in his characterization. Attached Images

7th February 2014, 05:19 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Jim, Thank you for bringing the thread back to track. Your suggestion of the two weapons being procured not presented is well placed as no proof appears in the meetings of Hasekura on his travels having been presented with these items moreover there are several details indicative of the purchase or acquired nature of these weapons viz; Japan in Philippine history By Ambeth R. Ocampo Philippine Daily Inquirer 10:42 pm \| Thursday, October 31st, 2013 Quote"Hasekura Tsunenaga was a Japanese samurai who was received in Mexico, Spain, the Vatican, and the Philippines as a Spanish ambassador in a romantic seven-year journey. He was given an audience by King Philip III in Madrid, was baptized at the Real Monasterio de Descalzas Reales where the Duke Lerma stood as ninong, then was received by Pope Paul V and granted honorary citizenship by the City of Rome. Hasekura’s last stop was Manila, where he wrote a cheerful letter to his son in 1619 saying he was shopping and preparing to sail home. The original letter is displayed in the Sendai City Museum together with an Indonesian kris and a dagger from Sri Lanka that Hasekura acquired in the Philippines. I was disappointed that no Philippine artifacts were extant. Not in the exhibition are archival documents on the Hasekura mission from the Archivo General de Indias in Sevilla written during Hasekura’s stay in Manila: an inventory of presents sent to the Shogun by the Governor-General of the Philippines, reports from the Bishop of Cebu and the Archbishop of Manila regarding the rivalry between the Jesuits and the other religious orders doing missionary work in Japan, and reports on the continued persecution of Christians in Japan".Unquote There is an interesting background description to the Kris at forum on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=kris+kastane by A.G. MAISEY that is essential background reading and from which I have recovered the picture below. Wikepedia carries the same artwork and under it states that they were "acquired" from The Philippines. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga See also http://www.japanartsandcrafts.com/8212.html Indonesian kris and Ceylonese dagger (acquired in the Philippines), presented by Hasekura to Date Masamune upon his return; Quote"Sendai City Museum Hasekura reported his travels to Date Masamune upon his arrival in Sendai. It is recorded that he remitted a portrait of Pope Paul V, a portrait of himself in prayer (see website), and a set of Ceylonese and Indonesian daggers acquired in the Philippines, all preserved today in the Sendai City Museum."Unquote Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 7th February 2014 at 06:36 PM.

6th February 2014, 06:54 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Just an interesting aside Jim, we may need to wonder what was in the mind of Henri Breuil when he made that sketch of the "Sorcerer" back in the 1920s when we look at an actual photograph of the cave drawing made years later. http://www.strangehistory.net/2011/0...-art-cobblers/

6th February 2014, 09:42 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	To continue my earlier post from an outside interruption, the point I was alluding to with the mysterious therionthrope in Trois Freres was of course that these curious figures, just as in considerable ethnographic iconography or for that matter even medieval heraldry etc it is often hard to determine what is actually represented . We can of course speculate using known contexts associated with the example being considered, but these things can seldom be proven with any large degree of certainty. It seems well substantiated that the ancient mythology of Sinhala has considerable focus on the lion, therefore seemed well in place by the time of trade contacts and later colonial incursions. With this it seems quite reasonable to assume that the sinha (lion) would be represented on the pommel of these hilts . As with many forms of Asian iconography, the embellishment and flourishes extend far beyond what western interpretations of various creatures might expect. Since there seem to be variations on the appearance of the creatures featured on the pommel of different examples of the kastane, we have clearly instances of artistic license possible, as well as potentially other influences affecting the portrayal of the figures on the hilts. I believe the analysis of these varying forms are more to the artistic aspects iconographically and individual examples should of course be attended to on their own merits and unique features. Returning to the larger scope of our discussion, what we are trying to determine is just how long ago the use of figured iconography began its use on Sinhalese swords, specifically the kastane. Just how far back does the kastane hilt as familiar today go back in Sinhalese history? Until the discussions on the previous thread ('Sinhalese/Sri Lankan Swords) I had assumed the Sendai Museum sword to be one of the earliest examples of the hilt (c.1600-20) but interesting instances farther back were presented by Prasanna. Hopefully we can gain more data and perhaps images of those. The Sendai (Hasekura) example (Keicho Mission) for Date Masamune of Japan has proven most interesting with the question of exactly where it was obtained by Hasekura. While it was speculated that this sword was acquired from Philip III of Spain while the mission was in Madrid, it is now my understanding that this was probably acquired in the Philippines in the two years Hasekura was there. Rather than being a 'presented' item, this seems to have been more an acquired item along with the kris with it. This seems more in line with the lack of documented narrative concerning these items. The questions which intrigue me on this particular kastane are more toward the interesting blade, of somewhat falchion form and with the 'monster' head at the blade peak which indeed does correspond to similar creature detail on a glaive type Chinese blade posted by Vandoo. We know of course that the Philippines as a trade entrepot had presence from Sri Lanka, China, Indonesia and of course the major powers . Could this kastane have been mounted with this blade in the Philippines and been acquired by Hasekura as an interesting novelty to present to the Date? These are the questions I hope to follow here. The dialogue on the artistic representation on kastane hilts is always interesting, but I think that its subjective nature often creates a certain volatility. Just the same, these figures are of course an integral part of the history of this weapon, and should be approached with a great deal of patience as differing views are examined.