A thought on Indian weapons

Jens Nordlunde · 24th January 2009, 08:33 PM

One interesting thing about swords are, that they were inherited, and when sharpened often. Have a look at the attached. At the base it is half a centimetre broader than at the curve. Normally the blade would be as broad at the base as on the curve, but not here. So this indicates to me that this blade may be a lot older than the hilt.

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2009, 08:55 PM

Hi Jens,
Definitely an interesting observation, and the wavering on the blade surely does evidence this blade has experienced a long working life. Whether passed on in families, or simply traded and reworked, it is just a matter of time as the only way to make the blade servicable is the grind to sharpness.

Presumably, this was often a do it yourself project rather than relying on armourers who would have been a bit more skilled at uniformity. Perhaps this would evidence a weapon in use outside the perameters of established forces?

All the best,
Jim

Gonzalo G · 25th January 2009, 03:30 AM

Jens, I think we can make such a presumption, but the continuos sharpening is only a circumstantial evidence of a possible and probable change of hilt, not a conclussive one. We cannot infere automaticcaly one fron the other. But your point is very good, tough I think we can find relatively unused blades with the hilts changed all over the world.
Regards

Gonzalo

Lew · 25th January 2009, 12:27 PM

As far as changing of the hilts goes my theory is one size does not fit all. So as a sword is recycled through it's different owners each being slightly taller or shorter with varying hand sizes one could assume that the hilt could be easily replace to fit the individual warrior. Take a look at this photo from the 19th century they three are not Indian but are a good example of what I am talking about.

Lew

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2009, 12:52 PM

Thank you for your answers. I am of course guessing, as I can’t know for sure.

When it comes to the hilt sizes there is something strange. On almost all the hilts on the tulwars, the grips are within 5 mm, from 7.5 cm to 8.0 cm. The smaller hilts must have been made for children; I know of bigger hilts, but they are rare, and sometimes you see the disc has been removed, maybe to give room for a bigger hand.

Pukka Bundook · 25th January 2009, 02:10 PM

Good morning Jens,

I think if a hilt has koftgari in good condition and a worn blade, there is a strong likelihood of the blade being rehilted....but for a blade with a munitions grade hilt it would be rather hard to say.

Apart from the old tulwar I have that had been attacked with an angle-grinder, I have never seen a tulwar with severe grind-marks to the edge. Could this mean that a worn blade was sharpened many many times, by removing the least possible amount of metal, and not just a few times by someone removing a lot of 'beef' all at once?
I would think so, as these were often heirlooms as well as weapons, and I would imagine that they were preserved as well as possible and not sharpened away needlessly.

I have a rather old tulwar, with the blade worn down by maybe 25%, but the hilt in this case has most of the koftgari worn away, so the two parts may be original to each other.
I have often wondered when a tulwar blade was considered to be past being useful.
The worn one mentioned above, has the sometimes seen rather thick spine, but the blade is now rather narrow.
I wonder; It has been kept sharp, so was it considered a viable sword to take to a fight?......a secondry weapon?

Re. hilt size;
Most are tight for westerners as we know, but the more one handles them, the better they feel! (Just my opinion!....maybe my hand shrunk)
I know that in parts of India, people have very small hands compared to Europeans.
Sometimes there is talk of the first finger being placed over the cross, but I think not, and don't want to open that discussion again.
When looking at some katars a while ago, I found I could not fit my hand into any of them, ....and with a katar there is nowhere to place the 'extra' fingers!.....so must deduct that the tulwar hilts fit the inended users well enough. I
I will try and take a picture of my worn-away blade, and show here.

Best wishes,

Richard.

24th January 2009, 08:33 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	A thought on Indian weapons One interesting thing about swords are, that they were inherited, and when sharpened often. Have a look at the attached. At the base it is half a centimetre broader than at the curve. Normally the blade would be as broad at the base as on the curve, but not here. So this indicates to me that this blade may be a lot older than the hilt. Attached Images

25th January 2009, 12:27 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	As far as changing of the hilts goes my theory is one size does not fit all. So as a sword is recycled through it's different owners each being slightly taller or shorter with varying hand sizes one could assume that the hilt could be easily replace to fit the individual warrior. Take a look at this photo from the 19th century they three are not Indian but are a good example of what I am talking about. Lew Attached Images

24th January 2009, 08:55 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Hi Jens, Definitely an interesting observation, and the wavering on the blade surely does evidence this blade has experienced a long working life. Whether passed on in families, or simply traded and reworked, it is just a matter of time as the only way to make the blade servicable is the grind to sharpness. Presumably, this was often a do it yourself project rather than relying on armourers who would have been a bit more skilled at uniformity. Perhaps this would evidence a weapon in use outside the perameters of established forces? All the best, Jim

25th January 2009, 03:30 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jens, I think we can make such a presumption, but the continuos sharpening is only a circumstantial evidence of a possible and probable change of hilt, not a conclussive one. We cannot infere automaticcaly one fron the other. But your point is very good, tough I think we can find relatively unused blades with the hilts changed all over the world. Regards Gonzalo

25th January 2009, 12:52 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Thank you for your answers. I am of course guessing, as I can’t know for sure. When it comes to the hilt sizes there is something strange. On almost all the hilts on the tulwars, the grips are within 5 mm, from 7.5 cm to 8.0 cm. The smaller hilts must have been made for children; I know of bigger hilts, but they are rare, and sometimes you see the disc has been removed, maybe to give room for a bigger hand.

25th January 2009, 02:10 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Jens, I think if a hilt has koftgari in good condition and a worn blade, there is a strong likelihood of the blade being rehilted....but for a blade with a munitions grade hilt it would be rather hard to say. Apart from the old tulwar I have that had been attacked with an angle-grinder, I have never seen a tulwar with severe grind-marks to the edge. Could this mean that a worn blade was sharpened many many times, by removing the least possible amount of metal, and not just a few times by someone removing a lot of 'beef' all at once? I would think so, as these were often heirlooms as well as weapons, and I would imagine that they were preserved as well as possible and not sharpened away needlessly. I have a rather old tulwar, with the blade worn down by maybe 25%, but the hilt in this case has most of the koftgari worn away, so the two parts may be original to each other. I have often wondered when a tulwar blade was considered to be past being useful. The worn one mentioned above, has the sometimes seen rather thick spine, but the blade is now rather narrow. I wonder; It has been kept sharp, so was it considered a viable sword to take to a fight?......a secondry weapon? Re. hilt size; Most are tight for westerners as we know, but the more one handles them, the better they feel! (Just my opinion!....maybe my hand shrunk) I know that in parts of India, people have very small hands compared to Europeans. Sometimes there is talk of the first finger being placed over the cross, but I think not, and don't want to open that discussion again. When looking at some katars a while ago, I found I could not fit my hand into any of them, ....and with a katar there is nowhere to place the 'extra' fingers!.....so must deduct that the tulwar hilts fit the inended users well enough. I I will try and take a picture of my worn-away blade, and show here. Best wishes, Richard.