Ram's head khanjar for comment

[Bob A]

I feel relatively certain that it's a marriage; the blade and hilt did not originate together. I base this on the condition of the hilt, especially near the blade insertion area, relative to the seeming total lack of corrosion on the blade.

When you finally decide you can no longer live with the tension caused by this dichotomy, I'd be pleased to take it off your hands.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It is not uncommon for broken blades from other weapons to be incorporated into daggers... I think the damage near the hilt is because of this re match.... Nice hilt and a good example of the Zoomorphic nature of these daggers.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It is not uncommon for broken blades from other weapons to be incorporated into daggers... I think the damage near the hilt is because of this re match.... Nice hilt and a good example of the Zoomorphic nature of these daggers.

First, I know next to nothing about Indian weapons but in my opinion you have hit the nail here! Old broken blade (from this the cracks in the blade) with an IMVHO old hilt, I see the wear in the good pictures, look the last picture in #1. And also the pitting at the handle let me think it's an old one. Both old/antique and put together I think.

Regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

First, why Indo-Persian?! I am pretty sure this is a 100% Indian khanjar (AKA Mughal Dagger) that has nothing to do with Persia.

I like to believe that I am pretty familiar with current Indian production of swords & daggers.

In my opinion, both hilt and blade are old.

All recent production examples I have seen have hilts carved in stone (jade, soapstone, agate, jasper, etc.), bone, fake ivory, etc. but definitely not iron. Why?! Because Iron is very dificult to carve. Moreover, your hilt does not bear any characteristic of machining and is almost certainly chiseled and filed by hand. As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century, and that's precisely when I believe your hilt was made.

As with regards with the wootz blade, it appears to be crystalline wootz that was produced by the end of the classic wootz period, namely the first half of 19th century.

However, crystalline wootz quite similar to this is also currently produced but it is quite rare and definitely highly prized. Since yours displays very fine watering, as close as it gets to the classic wootz, I believe it is old because if it were newly produced, it would have been more expensive than classic wootz and would have definitely been mounted in a more exclusive hilt.

As with regards to the crack, it is possible the blade had an earlier mount but was damaged and then was remounted in the current hilt. However, I believe that this may have happened at least a century ago.

My conclusion is that you have an excellent classic example of a 19th century Mughal dagger.

[Bob A]

While I have no problem with the idea that the blade might have been installed in the hilt after, perhaps some time after, the hilt came into being, I suspect it may have been made for a weapon of the relatively same dimensions as it currently exists. My thinking stems from the contours of the blade itself, with the gracefully thickened point and general recurved contours. In other words, the blade seems to me to be pretty much the ideal size and shape for the role it is playing.

This is not to deny the possibility of its having been broken, presumably near the hilt, in an earlier installation. This would also help account for the flaws seen near the hilt.

I'm comfortable locating its origin to an area between the Persian Gulf and the Irrawaddy River, below the Hindu Kush. It is undoubtedly older than I am.

[Cthulhu]

Thanks for the opinions and discussion; it's really interesting to learn a little of the thought process that goes into these evaluations.

Thanks also to Ibrahiim for the photos of other ram's head daggers. Aside from being nice pieces, they help me feel more confident that the protruding horns on my knife aren't ridiculously over-decorative.

I looked at some photos of wootz reproductions and billets on ebay, and I really can't tell the difference between them and my knife. But I also can't tell the difference between them and photos of period wootz, so I think I'm the real point of failure there. Is there somewhere (site/book/forum thread) with an explanation (and better yet side-by-side comparison photos) of what to look for? Or is it more a matter of experience and "feel"?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It is not uncommon for broken blades from other weapons to be incorporated into daggers... I think the damage near the hilt is because of this re match.... Nice hilt and a good example of the Zoomorphic nature of these daggers.

Ibrahiim, two of your examples are modern made.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, two of your examples are modern made.

Without better close-up photos is hard to tell.

However, my bet is that they are both old pieces (at least the hilts) but recently decorated. The golden one appears to have a new pattern welded blade, while the silver one appears to have an original wootz blade.

It is very easy to take a dagger like the one in the original posting, replace old/damaged parts (blade, hilt or only fixtures) if necessary, clean it nicely, apply Koftgari lavishly, furbish it with a new matching scabbard and sell it for 3-5 times the price it would have raised in its original state.

This is a very, very widely spread practice in India these days as Koftgari artists are abundant and their work comes cheap.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Without better close-up photos is hard to tell.

However, my bet is that they are both old pieces (at least the hilts) but recently decorated. The golden one appears to have a new pattern welded blade, while the silver one appears to have an original wootz blade.

Both are completely modern. No mention of wootz on the first and I think they were being very liberal with this "first quarter of the 20th Century" The second one does not even give a date, look at the sales price / estimates, the auction house knew what these were.

Lot 170: A kardThe Great Sale of Fine & Scarce Antique Arms & Armour, Day 1by Czerny's International Auction HouseMay 25, 2013 Sarzana (SP), Italy

Realized Price: €400 Verified
Estimated Price: €400 - €600
Description: Curved, toothed, double-edged blade, ribbed at the centre, at the forte a mount decorated with silver-inlaid floral motifs; fine, iron grip with pommel shaped as a ram head, entirely silver-inlaid with effigy of peacock among racemes; wooden scabbard with green velvet covering.
provenance: India
dimensions: length 32.5 cm.
dating: first quarter of the 20th Century

A FINE INDO PERSIAN DAMASCUS GOLD NIELLO DAGGER. The slightly curved Damascus steel blade with
Jackson's Auctioneers

Lot closed:
Apr 06, 2013 9am CDT
Estimate:
150 USD - 200 USD

A FINE INDO PERSIAN DAMASCUS GOLD NIELLO DAGGER. The slightly curved Damascus steel blade with saw tooth back, the handle and rams head pommel with ornate gold niello foliage. The velvet covered scabbard with similarly decorated gold niello mounts. Overall length 16 inches (40.7 cm).

[estcrh]

There is a good reason to be a bit suspicious when in doubt.

[estcrh]

Here is one from the Art Institute of Chicago, I have some doubts about this one as well, 17th to 18th century????

Curved Dagger (Khanjar) with Ram-Head Pommel, Mughal period, 17th/18th century

Watered steel inlaid with gold and silver in the kuftgari technique
28.6 x 5.7 x 2.9 cm (11 1/4 x 2 1/4 x 1 1/8 in.)