Baluchistan/Omani shamshir

ariel · 2nd January 2021, 05:07 PM

I continue for a while.
How would we date it? My guess 19th century, but Kwiatek can be able to fish out additional info from the stamp.

Battara · 2nd January 2021, 05:26 PM

I usually don't get into this form of shamshir, but Ariel this is a great example! I love the complete mounts and the extra stones in it. The ring on the hilt is a nice touch. The other mounts and the cloth accoutrements are wonderful. Nice wootz blade too.

Are there clearer close ups of the top of the hilt?

Thanks for sharing this piece with us!

TVV · 2nd January 2021, 05:34 PM

Happy New Year Ariel, and congratulations on this excellent acquisition. This is as nice as it can get and I actually liked it more than some other shamshirs that sold for more at the auction, so I think you did really well. I cannot recall others with the original baldric nicely preserved like this.

mariusgmioc · 2nd January 2021, 07:40 PM

Happy New Year!

Wow!

Drabant1701 · 2nd January 2021, 08:42 PM

That is a very nice sword. A sword that complete is a rare find.
Congratulations!

Gonzoadler · 2nd January 2021, 09:56 PM

Great Shamshir.
That is a rich present to yourself, ariel.

ariel · 3rd January 2021, 06:38 AM

No, not to myself.
It was found in the morning of January 1, on the floor near the fireplace.
I am still not sure how it got there
:-)

Battara · 3rd January 2021, 11:31 PM

..........and I just got a lump of coal.........

Kubur · 4th January 2021, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No, not to myself.
It was found in the morning of January 1, on the floor near the fireplace.
I am still not sure how it got there
:-)

AMA ZING sword Ariel, TOP quality, I'm even surprised that there is no Balutch attached to it...

Here it's what you get if you have a fireplace...

ALEX · 5th January 2021, 10:43 PM

Ariel, an impressive shamshir. The baldric is awesome. It'd be interesting to hear the opinions on dating, hopefully Kwiatek and others will have more insights. Also, you mentioned Sindh and Baluchistan, and so it is Pakistani, not Indian, right?

ariel · 6th January 2021, 03:15 PM

My best guess it dates to the 19th century.
History of Balochistan is complex. Balochistan belonged to Afghanistan, but eastern Balochistan was captured by Nader Shah and became part of Iran. After the fall of Durrani dynasty, Balochistan became factually independent, but in the 1870s and especially after the second Afghani war it became part of British India with the exception of Gwadar that belonged to Oman. After the great division of British India in 1948 it was captured by Pakistan. Gwadar was sold to Pakistan in 1958, but even now about a third of Omanis are descendants of Baloch immigrants.

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Since I place it in the 19th century it could not have been Pakistani: Pakistan did not exist yet. IMHO, the most correct one would be “Indian” or “Omani”. Further hairsplitting: since these swords are usually attributed(!) to Hyderabad in Sindh, we could attribute it to British India. Although, had it been made before the infamous “ Peccavi” ( I have sinned) by general Napier in 1843, we should call it Sindhi.

Go figure....

However, geography and history aside, it carries both “Indian” and Omani features..
Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc.

I love these mixes, both geographical and repurposed:-)

Kubur · 6th January 2021, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc.

I agree but it seems that Iran/ Persian has been forgotten somewhere.

Let me add

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, "Farsi", “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab Indo-Persian etc.

When you look at the sword: blade, quillons, pommel, leather on the scabbard, the Persian influence is obvious...

ALEX · 6th January 2021, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

... When you look at the sword: blade, quillons, pommel, leather on the scabbard, the Persian influence is obvious...

I had the very same thought, strong Persian influence and Pakistani workmanship. Persia is also closest neighbor to Baluchistan I believe.

ariel · 7th January 2021, 02:55 AM

I might have added Persia, but reconsidered.
The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely). It might have been forged in India, Afghanistan or locally, in Sindh. Itinerant bladesmiths were dime a dozen in that part of the world. Also, in the 19 century Persian blades were exported in thousands all over Eurasia: Caucasus, Aravia, Ottoman Empire, Afghanistan, India, Russian Empire..
IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture. An Indian sword with Persian blade is a “ Tulwar with Persian blade”. Similarly, a Shashka with Persian, German, Russian or Polish blade is still Caucasian and a saber with a bulbous pommel is still an Ottoman Kilij despite a Mamluke blade. I have a couple of Tulwars with British blades, a Moroccan Nimcha with ( what was suggested here) Indian blade, and another one with a likely German trade blade destined for South America, and Ethiopian Gurades with German and Russian blades.
As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-)

This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard. It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings. Would you invoke Persian connection if the blade had Indian ricasso?
That was my thought.
I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion.

Kubur · 7th January 2021, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion.

I'm glad to read that.
So let's do it

First, of course, you are right it's a balutch sword.

then

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture.
As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-)

I agree too. And a Spanish / South American blade on a Moroccan berber sword is a Berber sword...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely).

This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard.

It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings.

Here I disagree, you have 2 suspension rings on the scabbard.

The gorgeous baldric was added later.

The leather work and guard look Persian.

I feel that this sword was a Persian shamshir refurbished in Balutchistan, with Omani silver work influences...

2nd January 2021, 05:07 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I continue for a while. How would we date it? My guess 19th century, but Kwiatek can be able to fish out additional info from the stamp. Attached Images

7th January 2021, 02:55 AM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I might have added Persia, but reconsidered. The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely). It might have been forged in India, Afghanistan or locally, in Sindh. Itinerant bladesmiths were dime a dozen in that part of the world. Also, in the 19 century Persian blades were exported in thousands all over Eurasia: Caucasus, Aravia, Ottoman Empire, Afghanistan, India, Russian Empire.. IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture. An Indian sword with Persian blade is a “ Tulwar with Persian blade”. Similarly, a Shashka with Persian, German, Russian or Polish blade is still Caucasian and a saber with a bulbous pommel is still an Ottoman Kilij despite a Mamluke blade. I have a couple of Tulwars with British blades, a Moroccan Nimcha with ( what was suggested here) Indian blade, and another one with a likely German trade blade destined for South America, and Ethiopian Gurades with German and Russian blades. As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-) This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard. It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings. Would you invoke Persian connection if the blade had Indian ricasso? That was my thought. I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion. Last edited by ariel; 7th January 2021 at 03:20 AM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

2nd January 2021, 05:26 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,294	I usually don't get into this form of shamshir, but Ariel this is a great example! I love the complete mounts and the extra stones in it. The ring on the hilt is a nice touch. The other mounts and the cloth accoutrements are wonderful. Nice wootz blade too. Are there clearer close ups of the top of the hilt? Thanks for sharing this piece with us!

2nd January 2021, 05:34 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Happy New Year Ariel, and congratulations on this excellent acquisition. This is as nice as it can get and I actually liked it more than some other shamshirs that sold for more at the auction, so I think you did really well. I cannot recall others with the original baldric nicely preserved like this.

2nd January 2021, 07:40 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Happy New Year! Wow!

2nd January 2021, 08:42 PM	#5
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	That is a very nice sword. A sword that complete is a rare find. Congratulations!

2nd January 2021, 09:56 PM	#6
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 271	Great Shamshir. That is a rich present to yourself, ariel.

3rd January 2021, 06:38 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No, not to myself. It was found in the morning of January 1, on the floor near the fireplace. I am still not sure how it got there :-)

3rd January 2021, 11:31 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,294	..........and I just got a lump of coal.........

5th January 2021, 10:43 PM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ariel, an impressive shamshir. The baldric is awesome. It'd be interesting to hear the opinions on dating, hopefully Kwiatek and others will have more insights. Also, you mentioned Sindh and Baluchistan, and so it is Pakistani, not Indian, right?

6th January 2021, 03:15 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My best guess it dates to the 19th century. History of Balochistan is complex. Balochistan belonged to Afghanistan, but eastern Balochistan was captured by Nader Shah and became part of Iran. After the fall of Durrani dynasty, Balochistan became factually independent, but in the 1870s and especially after the second Afghani war it became part of British India with the exception of Gwadar that belonged to Oman. After the great division of British India in 1948 it was captured by Pakistan. Gwadar was sold to Pakistan in 1958, but even now about a third of Omanis are descendants of Baloch immigrants. Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”. Since I place it in the 19th century it could not have been Pakistani: Pakistan did not exist yet. IMHO, the most correct one would be “Indian” or “Omani”. Further hairsplitting: since these swords are usually attributed(!) to Hyderabad in Sindh, we could attribute it to British India. Although, had it been made before the infamous “ Peccavi” ( I have sinned) by general Napier in 1843, we should call it Sindhi. Go figure.... However, geography and history aside, it carries both “Indian” and Omani features.. Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc. I love these mixes, both geographical and repurposed:-)