Two handed swords

[Matchlock]

Hi Kronckew,

Yup, seems I was somewhat quicker on the draw ...

I tried to brighten up the images because I think the sword is worth a discussion. I like the wavy line ornament on the ricasso often found on such big swords.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Well understood that, when i suggest cerimonial, i don't pretend is not guenuine ... only not a combat one but, one to display power and authoritiy .

[Matchlock]

Fully agreed, 'Nando,

Your comment was not the reason at all why I said I thought it was genuine. Let's see what Ottmar says ...

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

The second two-hand sword seems to feature a genuine North German early-17th c. blade.
It should however not be presented together with a late 16th c. horseman's armor and an early-16th c. style Katzbalger because this ensemble does not convey a homogeneous impression.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,


Thanks for responding so fast.

As concerns the Katzbalger:
I feel that we really need to see good close-ups of the ricasso section and the characteristic fluting which should be there. The overall length of the weapon should not fall short of ca. 88 cm, possible wear and working time shortening theoretically included.

As regards your ensemble: I did not mean to say it was bad by any means - which of us can present anything approximating that? Anyway, it is of museum quality, no doubt. It is both decorative and optically imposing. A fair compromise, no question.
After all, and just judging by a few pics, I think you have been doing very well!

Did you consider studying this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630



Best from Lower Bavaria for tonight,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

Thanks for the interesting comments. Indeed, the katzbalger has been purchased in the Netherlands (at Bolk antiques, European dealer of fine antique Swords and Armors). It was previously in a 40-year old private collection. The seller in the Netherlands (Ton Bolk, highly recommended) got only one period katzbalger in almost 40-year business (this one) while many later 19th century replicas were obtained by the same and sold over the years...
Concerning the two hand sword (straight blade), I will look inside the ring guards later today and will let you know for the 'fleurs-de-Lys'.

The length of the Katzbalger is 74 cm. There are a mid 16th century 'Passau running wolf' (at center blade on two sides), and also (at ricasso) three 'cross and orb' motifs (in a triangle) one one side, and three moons (also in a triangle) on the reverse side of blade.

My best ,

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Indeed, I have seen the (outstanding) link to the 'Katzbalger' thread. It is the best thread I ever found on any forum or so (can almost make a very well documented book with it !).

Thanks and all the best,

jm

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,

Hi Jasper,

My friend - and I am completely with him - states that that was an old-fashioned first-half to mid-20th century dating unfortunately adopted by Seitz; weaponry has made progress ever since and the correct period assignment for this latest North German type of two-hand procesional swords should be '2nd decade 17th century'.

I attach images of a group of those North German two-hand swords acquired as 'Vortragschwerter' (processional swords) by the town council of Emden in ca. 1615 (!), and still preserved in the Emden Amory; one of them (see close-up) is comparable to the one in discussion.

The lower three photos taken by me in the Emden reserve collection in 1992 show a similar North German type, early 17th c., the grip missing, the ricasso with comparable engraved line decoration.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Thanks for all this interesting information. At the Barcelona Citadel Museum, you can also see the weavy ornament at the ricasso of a similar two handed sword (see link below).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6830857...n/photostream/

My German two handed sword was previously on display in a Dutch Museum. It has been dated to ca. 1570 according to the information I have on it.

It is 184 cm length and weighs 3.8 kg (ca. 8 pounds) .

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

As to my cat (Katz), it remains outdoor because it probably saw that the 16th century Katzbalger is missing its original scabbard....

[Jean-Marc S.]

Sorry for the quality of some pics...

[Jean-Marc S.]

[Dmitry]

The sword in post #20 is indeed a replica, in my opinion.
Just my $.02

[Matchlock]

Quite right, Dmitry,

I would say the blade with its way too many nicks looks 'overaged', apart from the fact that the sectioning of the blade (lenticular cross section) is not corrrect and the overall length is too short.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

In reference to the 'Three moons' motif mark found on blade of 16th century Katzbalger : as mentioned previously, such an IDENTICAL 'three moons' motif is found on German coat-of-arms (see third quarter) of Sachsen-Lauenburg, indicating an actual german origin of such motif, rather than african or so (as suggested in some posts). I will search in other german cities coat-of-arms too.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

The 'three orbs and crosses' motif (three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle) is described to be typical german mark of the mid-16th century. There is a previous post in the forum showing exactly the same pattern of three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here are some information from specialized books, that I got on the web (Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie, published in 1885; Gyngell's Armourers marks, page 30).

- The shape of 'orb and cross' motif found on katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one shown on pic (plate 1: number 24, and plate 2: middle orb mark), indicating a 16th century period, coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'three orbs and crosses' motif -with orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle- is also reported to be typical German 16th century (not shown in this post: I have to refind it on the web ), also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'Passau running wolf' motif etched on both sides of katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one described to be mid-16th century, also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade. Interestingly, it has some additional details that were also reported amongst known variants of the 'Passau running wolf' (see plate 3, number 14).

Such blade marks are therefore totally coherent with a German 16th century blade...

jm