Indo-Persian knife for comment

[GuyM]

Hello forumnites,

I recently purchased the knife you can see in the attached pictures. I figure it is Persian (a form or Kard?) or possibly Indian. It is definitely made of wootz steel, and I think it used to have a golden decoration at the base of the blade near the handle (unfortunately lost).
I appreciate all comments!

Thanks a bunch.

[RSWORD]

Thanks for posting pics of this beautiful knife. Charles Buttin in "Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes" has a knife of same general blade form with hilt of similar angle on item 701, Plate XXII. He identifies that piece as Afghanistan or Bhukara. I would lean towards those regions as possible origins for this knife. The blade is indeed wootz.

[ariel]

I agree: Northern Afghanistan/Uzbekistan. The handle has a characteristic form of a "pseudo-shashka" (as per Lebedynsky's definition): eared pommel and widening toward the top (unlike Caucasian shashkas that have almost cylinrical handles).The bolster is very much similar to Khyber or Pesh Kabz. I have 3 Uzbeki shashkas, 2 of them bear stamps of Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal: 2 mosques and cannons. Anything similar here? The "curl" at the back (top) of the blade is vaguely familiar also, but I cannot recall where I saw it.
Very nice find, congratulations!

[ariel]

Sorry. pushed the button one time too many....

[GuyM]

Wonderful input, thanks to both of you!
Ariel, I can find no marks whatsoever on the blade or the handle, in particular, no Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal stamp.
Does anyone know how this kind of knife is called? Any guess as to its age?

Thanks

[spiral]

mmmmm very nice knife!

I had always thought though, that these eared pommel knives{as visible in 2nd. photo} were usualy from the Turkey,Greece or Crete sort of area?

Spiral

[Michel]

RSword,

with all due respect, I think that the N°701 of plate XXI of Charles Buttin is really a Pesh Kabz. In his explanation he names it Pich-Qàbz.
I agree with you and Ariel, that knife must come from central Asia.
In the book "bei Shah emir und Khan" discribing the beautiful collection of Henri Moser, page 90, is a knife named "Ptshak". (I will try to join a photo) this is the closest I have found to the knife shown by Guy.
Nowhere have I found a blade with the same curve and cutting on the back and no back reinforcement as the the Pesh Quabz.


Regards
Michel

[Ian]

A while back on the old forum I posted pictures of the knife below. The blade shape is similar to the one at the start of this thread, although the hilt is obviously different.

Thoughts then was that my knife was likely from Afghanistan or nearby Central Asia (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, etc.).

Ian.

[spiral]

Fascinating! In this picture it shows an eared handle, do you guys realy think thats central asian? I still say Turkish myself.

Here a knife of mine of similar style with an unusual very fine wootz or laminated steel blade.

I think mine is from India or Russia {Bokarra} but still think the featured eared dagger is from further west, but I am just a collector, nothing more.

Always interested to hear others views though.

Spiral

[Rick]

A comment on the piece that started this thread :
What an interesting wootz pattern , I cant get over how 'loose' it is ..

[Jim McDougall]

Nice acquisition Guy!
I completely agree with Central Asian attribution, and Ariels notes. This is likely Uzbek from regions closer to now Afghanistan. The most applicable term would probably be 'bytshak' which is spelled various ways. See article "Some Nineteenth Century Arms from Bukhara" by Torben Flindt (in "Islamic Arms & Armour" ed. Robert Elgood, pp.20-29). Rick's note pointing out the pesh kabz in Buttin brings attention to the interesting recurve on the blade which seems atypical in the bytshak. This same recurve is also found on N. Indian khanjars. The interesting chiseling and choil type work on the back of the blade at the terminus of the back edge is also Central Asian characteristic.
The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas.
Best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

quote "The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas.
Best regards,
Jim"

AAAAhhh, I see, thats great, I learn more evry time I visit here.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Spiral,
Me too!!!
Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Rick

A comment on the piece that started this thread :
What an interesting wootz pattern , I cant get over how 'loose' it is ..

Hi All,

I agree with Rick, this is a very strange wootz pattern?? Could this be Arab Damascus?

Jeff

[GuyM]

And I learn more than any of you! This is great! Thanks for all the input.

I've attached another picture of the handle, the cleft is quite deep.
The wootz is very pleasent I must say, sort of 'watery'. That's certainly what decided me into buying it. I've attached another picture of the pattern for you enjoyment :-)

[Rick]

Guy , I'd love to see a close up of that blade taken in natural light .
It is a most fascinating wootz pattern .

[GuyM]

Originally Posted by Rick

Guy , I'd love to see a close up of that blade taken in natural light .
It is a most fascinating wootz pattern .

All the previous picures except for the very last one have been taken in natural light (and it shows, the last one is definitely not as good as the previous ones). But I will take some more pictures as soon as daylight is back :-), concentrating on the wootz pattern. I have to say that taking pictures of such a delicate feature of the metal is quite a challenge!

[Rick]

Yes , I agree , it's hard to get no light reflection at all .
Cloudy bright days are best for this lighting .

Photoshop or Irfanview could help manipulate the picture to accentuate the patterning .

[ariel]

I have a friend from Uzbekistan and he told me that such a knife is called Pichok.
The similarity with the Turkish name Bichaq is obvious and perfectly understandable: Uzbeks are descended from Turkic-Mongol tribes and share the same ethnic roots with the "traditional" Turks. They have adopted their name in honor of one of the Altyn Orda Khans, Ozbek. By the way, this is a very popular boy's name in modern Turkey.
Tajiks are native Central Asians and are close to Persians. They are still smarting from the devastation inflicted upon them by the Mongols and view Uzbeks as "intruders"; when talking to a Tajik, do NOT call him Uzbek!

[GuyM]

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes , I agree , it's hard to get no light reflection at all .
Cloudy bright days are best for this lighting .

Definitely, I took all my pictures on cloudy days, we've got a lot of them this time of the year around here :-)

Anyway, here's the new lot. It's hard to get a picture of the whole blade with the wootz patterns coming out decently, but for the real fans, I've reverted to plan B: high def scanner. The result is not bad at all, if a little bright (but this can be mended with Photoshop), however, the 1200 dpi scan is a whoping 20Mb, so if someone's got a place for storing this file on a server, I'd be happy to upload it there, this forum's site won't take it.

I hope the new pictures will give you a better idea of this very nice wootz pattern. Personally, I could not find any 'structure' to it, no ladder or anything like that, just a stream of flowing water.

Anyone's got an idea of the age of the piece?

Thanks!

[Rick]

Great pictures Guy !
Thanks very much .

I love the pattern .
I wonder if it has been manipulated by the smith .
Sham wootz possibly ?

Comments ?

[Jeff D]

Beautiful Guy.

Nothing sham about this pattern! My best guess is 19th century (thin lines lighter contrast etc...). Lots of activity, very nice indeed.

Jeff

[Rick]

Could you suggest a type of wootz for this intriguing pattern ?

[Jeff D]

Hi Rick,

I would be seriously deluding myself if I thought i was qualified to acurately catagorize all wootz patterns, someone who has handled hundereds or even thousands of these pieces is needed (Philip, ham etc..). My best guess is this is "Qum" which Philip describes as medium colouration, lots of activity, tight swirls almost grainy. As always I will be more than happy to be corrected.

All the Best,
Jeff

[GuyM]

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if it has been manipulated by the smith .

I personaly don't think it has been, it seems very 'natural' if you know what I mean. But then this is my first wootz blade, and I've had only a few others in my hands.

Is there an ''encyclopedia" of wootz patterns somewhere other than in a few knowledgeable people's memory? I'd be very interested in having a look at it. If not, is it conceivable to start a new thread inviting people to contribute pictures of wootz patterns, identified or not?

Thanks

[Rick]

Guy,
There's always ON DAMASCUS STEEL by Leo S. Figiel MD .
There are a lot of pictures of different patterns in this book .
A starting place for Wootz study and worth buying if you don't already have it .

[Michel]

Guy,
in your dad's library is the book : "Damascus steel" by Manfred Sachse with several type of Damas ( european and asian)
In the book : Bei Schah Emir und Khan" by Balsinger and Klay are also at least 5 types of Asian damas. I attache a scan of the latter picture.


If you come at home you'll have a better look !!
Your dad

Michel

[GuyM]

Originally Posted by Rick

Guy,
There's always ON DAMASCUS STEEL by Leo S. Figiel MD .

Thanks for the pointer!

Originally Posted by Michel

Guy,
in your dad's library is the book : "Damascus steel" by Manfred Sachse
In the book : "Bei Schah Emir und Khan" by Balsinger and Klay

I should have remembered those!
Thanks dad

[ingelred]

I have seen this kind of pattern in one of the books from Herman Historica.
In this book this pattern is referred to as net damascus.
The books can be found here:

http://www.hermann-historica.com/

Look for reference books.

Greetings, Helge

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by ingelred

In this book this pattern is referred to as net damascus.

Unfortunately there is as many ways to name wootz as there is collectors. We need one of the "big boys" to publish a complete classification scheme that can become the standard.

Jeff