Shula S'boula/Jiboula

RobT · 7th November 2024, 11:56 PM

Hi All,

I know that it sounds like the beginning of a verse from Shirley Ellis' name game song but I was wondering how forum members would classify this knife. The hilt is clearly an s’boula/jiboula form but the blade and sheath are just as clearly shula. I’ll come right out with my opinion that it should be considered an s’boula/jiboula because the hilt was placed on the blade by a person of the s’boula/jiboula culture. But were the situation the other way around (shula hilt on an s’boula/jiboula blade), I’m not so sure I would want to call it a shula. What do you guys think?

Sincerely,
RobT

TVV · 8th November 2024, 12:21 AM

When it comes to ethnographic arms, we tend to classify swords and daggers by their hilt. For example, the same blade can be a takouba, a kaskara or even a firangi, depending on the hilt.

Based on this then, this would be a sboula.

Ian · 17th November 2024, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

When it comes to ethnographic arms, we tend to classify swords and daggers by their hilt. For example, the same blade can be a takouba, a kaskara or even a firangi, depending on the hilt.

Based on this then, this would be a sboula.

TVV, you raise an interesting point. I would agree with you that many cultures do look at the "dress" of a sword or knife to ascertain which group's name is used to describe it. However, I don't think this applies to all ethnographic arms. Keris owners within the Indonesian culture, for example, have a detailed classification system based on the dhapur of the blade (regardless of dress).

RobT · 5th June 2025, 12:53 AM

Hi All,

I decided to resurrect this thread because of a map in the online sample of Hans Wealth’s book (https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc..._selection.pdf). The map shows areas for the Moroccan khanjar, shula, s’boula, and various styles of koummya, The areas for both the shula and s’boula are in the northernmost part of Morocco. The shula area is roughly oriented east to west and extends over almost all of the Alboran seacoast (part of the Mediterranean) while the s’boula area is roughly oriented north to south and its coastline is mostly on the Atlantic with a small portion on the Alboran seacoast. The s’boula area is larger than the shula area.
The important thing is that the shula and s’boula areas overlap in part. This likely explains why my dagger wound up with an s’boula hilt on a shula blade and sheath.

Sincerely,
RobT

werecow · 5th June 2025, 03:37 AM

It appears the link to the pdf is broken Rob.

RobT · 6th June 2025, 12:05 AM

werecow,

I took this link (https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc..._selection.pdf) from the original supplied by Pertinax. I tried it in that original thread and it worked. I don't know why mine doesn't, so I bookmarked the site.

Sincerely,
RobT

RobT · 6th June 2025, 12:18 AM

werecow,

If you go to the original thread (A koummya- and contexts) started by Jim Mcdougall on 03/27/25 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30588) and click on the link supplied by Pertinax on 3/28/25, it works but if you copy it over (as I did for this thread), it doesn’t work. I can’t figure that one out.

Sincerely,
RobT

werecow · 6th June 2025, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

werecow,

If you go to the original thread (A koummya- and contexts) started by Jim Mcdougall on 03/27/25 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30588) and click on the link supplied by Pertinax on 3/28/25, it works but if you copy it over (as I did for this thread), it doesn’t work. I can’t figure that one out.

Sincerely,
RobT

I think the software abbreviated the text for the link in the original post and you probably copied the text instead of the link by accident. Let's try that again.

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2025, 09:16 PM

Terms for ethnographic arms are typically problematic, and for many years here we have referred to these NAME GAMES (not many younger folks here likely recall Shirley Ellis!) as just that, banana fana fo fana!!

These with the curious 'I' handle hilt seem to recall the early European form known as baselard, and like numbers of elements of Moroccan arms appear to reflect those influences. Like most weapons in tribal settings, diffusion via trade networks and nomadic movement was expected, and these seem to have moved eastward.
Some of these were known with similar hilts etc. in Ethiopia (as noted in several references) sometimes inscribed in Amharic, but are not considered indiginous to those regions.
Beyond this, undoubtedly via trade networks to the south, they ended up as far as Zanzibar, where Burton ("Book of the Sword", 1884) may have encountered them, however his reference to them was taken from Auguste Demmin (1877) who described them as from Zanzibar.

Charles Buttin (1933) who lived much of his life in Morocco, corrected this in his descriptions to properly s'bula from there, noting the Demmin/Burton discrepancy(#1032,1033)

Many of these, from the more consistent Moroccan context, seem to be fit with old bayonet blades, and as with these kinds of tribal weapons and continuous remounting, any number of blade types may be encountered.

Sajen · Yesterday, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

I know that it sounds like the beginning of a verse from Shirley Ellis' name game song but I was wondering how forum members would classify this knife. The hilt is clearly an s’boula/jiboula form but the blade and sheath are just as clearly shula. I’ll come right out with my opinion that it should be considered an s’boula/jiboula because the hilt was placed on the blade by a person of the s’boula/jiboula culture. But were the situation the other way around (shula hilt on an s’boula/jiboula blade), I’m not so sure I would want to call it a shula. What do you guys think?

Hello Rob,

Very nice and interesting dagger!

For me it's just the name game. I wouldn't be surprised that "s'boula" and "shula" are only different spellings for curved dagger and the "classification" for two, for our view, different curved daggers, is a western collectors "classification.

Best regards,
Detlef

Ian · Yesterday, 07:39 PM

Jim and Detlef,

Hans Waelty's book offers some insight into the S'boula/Shula distinction. The online selection has the following map and I reproduce it here under the principle of "fair use" for those who conduct research on these items (as we undoubtedly do on this web site).

Provenances of the Principle Types of Moroccan Knives of the 19th Century

Name: Map of Marocco and edged weapons.png
Views: 15
Size: 1.83 MB

Name: Map of Marocco and edged weapons.png
Views: 15
Size: 1.83 MB

M. Waelty distinguishes edged weapons made before the late 19th/early 20th C from those produced later because there was a change in the late 19th/earlyt 20th C when edged weapons (especially koummyas/khanjars) became more hybridized between the north and south of the country. The 19th C north/south differences are illustrated by the different centers of production shown on the map.

In the northern areas production and use was mainly in the urban areas adjacent to the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. These urban areas were cosmopolitan and influenced by the Muslim communities distributed widely in northern Africa, Turkey and Indo-Persia.

In the southern regions, the population was mostly Berbers who followed more of the older spiritual beliefs, and had a form of "folk Islam" that reflected similar blends of Islam with old beliefs that are found elsewhere in the Muslim world. This resulted in a somewhat different form of curved dagger (koummya) from the the khanjar in the north. M. Waelty explains this well.

Waelty also shows us that the s'boula and shula were knives from two regions in the north. The shula (which I think is named after a tribal group of the same name) is found in an area in the north-east adjacent to the Mediterranean, while the s'boula is found more to the west and south, mainly along the Atlantic cost in the north. There is some overlap of the two areas in the extreme north of the country.

According to Waelty, the straight-bladed forms are typical of the s'boula, while the shula have curved blades with acute points.

Ian · Yesterday, 08:05 PM

Rob,

Coming back to your knife at the start of this thread, I think it might be an example from the area where the s'boula and shula coexist on Waelty's map. In other words, a local hybrid of the two. I think you could call it either a s'boula or a shula or a hybrid of the two, just as we see hybrids of Moroccan koummya/khanjar in the late 19th/20th C.

5th June 2025, 12:53 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	New Information Hi All, I decided to resurrect this thread because of a map in the online sample of Hans Wealth’s book (https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc..._selection.pdf). The map shows areas for the Moroccan khanjar, shula, s’boula, and various styles of koummya, The areas for both the shula and s’boula are in the northernmost part of Morocco. The shula area is roughly oriented east to west and extends over almost all of the Alboran seacoast (part of the Mediterranean) while the s’boula area is roughly oriented north to south and its coastline is mostly on the Atlantic with a small portion on the Alboran seacoast. The s’boula area is larger than the shula area. The important thing is that the shula and s’boula areas overlap in part. This likely explains why my dagger wound up with an s’boula hilt on a shula blade and sheath. Sincerely, RobT

6th June 2025, 12:05 AM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	Try This One werecow, I took this link (https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc..._selection.pdf) from the original supplied by Pertinax. I tried it in that original thread and it worked. I don't know why mine doesn't, so I bookmarked the site. Sincerely, RobT

6th June 2025, 12:18 AM	#7
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	Very Strange werecow, If you go to the original thread (A koummya- and contexts) started by Jim Mcdougall on 03/27/25 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30588) and click on the link supplied by Pertinax on 3/28/25, it works but if you copy it over (as I did for this thread), it doesn’t work. I can’t figure that one out. Sincerely, RobT

7th June 2025, 09:16 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Sboula/Zanzibar Terms for ethnographic arms are typically problematic, and for many years here we have referred to these NAME GAMES (not many younger folks here likely recall Shirley Ellis!) as just that, banana fana fo fana!! These with the curious 'I' handle hilt seem to recall the early European form known as baselard, and like numbers of elements of Moroccan arms appear to reflect those influences. Like most weapons in tribal settings, diffusion via trade networks and nomadic movement was expected, and these seem to have moved eastward. Some of these were known with similar hilts etc. in Ethiopia (as noted in several references) sometimes inscribed in Amharic, but are not considered indiginous to those regions. Beyond this, undoubtedly via trade networks to the south, they ended up as far as Zanzibar, where Burton ("Book of the Sword", 1884) may have encountered them, however his reference to them was taken from Auguste Demmin (1877) who described them as from Zanzibar. Charles Buttin (1933) who lived much of his life in Morocco, corrected this in his descriptions to properly s'bula from there, noting the Demmin/Burton discrepancy(#1032,1033) Many of these, from the more consistent Moroccan context, seem to be fit with old bayonet blades, and as with these kinds of tribal weapons and continuous remounting, any number of blade types may be encountered. Attached Images

Yesterday, 07:39 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	Jim and Detlef, Hans Waelty's book offers some insight into the S'boula/Shula distinction. The online selection has the following map and I reproduce it here under the principle of "fair use" for those who conduct research on these items (as we undoubtedly do on this web site). Provenances of the Principle Types of Moroccan Knives of the 19th Century M. Waelty distinguishes edged weapons made before the late 19th/early 20th C from those produced later because there was a change in the late 19th/earlyt 20th C when edged weapons (especially koummyas/khanjars) became more hybridized between the north and south of the country. The 19th C north/south differences are illustrated by the different centers of production shown on the map. In the northern areas production and use was mainly in the urban areas adjacent to the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. These urban areas were cosmopolitan and influenced by the Muslim communities distributed widely in northern Africa, Turkey and Indo-Persia. In the southern regions, the population was mostly Berbers who followed more of the older spiritual beliefs, and had a form of "folk Islam" that reflected similar blends of Islam with old beliefs that are found elsewhere in the Muslim world. This resulted in a somewhat different form of curved dagger (koummya) from the the khanjar in the north. M. Waelty explains this well. Waelty also shows us that the s'boula and shula were knives from two regions in the north. The shula (which I think is named after a tribal group of the same name) is found in an area in the north-east adjacent to the Mediterranean, while the s'boula is found more to the west and south, mainly along the Atlantic cost in the north. There is some overlap of the two areas in the extreme north of the country. According to Waelty, the straight-bladed forms are typical of the s'boula, while the shula have curved blades with acute points. Last edited by Ian; Yesterday at 08:06 PM.

7th November 2024, 11:56 PM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	Shula S'boula/Jiboula Hi All, I know that it sounds like the beginning of a verse from Shirley Ellis' name game song but I was wondering how forum members would classify this knife. The hilt is clearly an s’boula/jiboula form but the blade and sheath are just as clearly shula. I’ll come right out with my opinion that it should be considered an s’boula/jiboula because the hilt was placed on the blade by a person of the s’boula/jiboula culture. But were the situation the other way around (shula hilt on an s’boula/jiboula blade), I’m not so sure I would want to call it a shula. What do you guys think? Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

8th November 2024, 12:21 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,663	When it comes to ethnographic arms, we tend to classify swords and daggers by their hilt. For example, the same blade can be a takouba, a kaskara or even a firangi, depending on the hilt. Based on this then, this would be a sboula.

5th June 2025, 03:37 AM	#5
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 561	It appears the link to the pdf is broken Rob.

Yesterday, 08:05 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	Rob, Coming back to your knife at the start of this thread, I think it might be an example from the area where the s'boula and shula coexist on Waelty's map. In other words, a local hybrid of the two. I think you could call it either a s'boula or a shula or a hybrid of the two, just as we see hybrids of Moroccan koummya/khanjar in the late 19th/20th C.