Tulwar makers/armory mark help?

timv · 11th August 2007, 10:52 PM

Hello all!

I've finally gotten around to addressing my loose hilt problem on a very sad old tulwar. I was told it was excavated and boy do I believe it! Unfortunately someone got hold of it and went to town with an angle grinder or something else equally destructive. Anyway, I did remove the hilt and (in the only place the grinder couldn't reach) under the hilt I found an interesting makers mark or armory mark. Can anyone help me identify it? I took the best pics I could - hope you can help.

Pukka Bundook · 14th August 2007, 02:45 PM

Hi Timy,
Can't help with the mark, but it Is a very nice clear one.

I got one a while ago that had also had the angle-grinder treatment, so had to be filed up and re-finished.
If nothing else, it Does give you a reason to clean it, which otherwise you would not do...

timv · 17th August 2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

If nothing else, it Does give you a reason to clean it, which otherwise you would not do...

Hi Pukka,
Your absolutely right. As far as the mark is concerned I can't even identify what kind of characters they are. Since I'm quite ignorant about these marks in general I was hoping that someone here might have seen something vaguely similar.

tombstone777 · 28th August 2007, 03:54 AM

Maybe somebody can make a guess at least at what this mark can stand for? I know that there are members here who are very knowledgeable about these weapons and their manufacture and I hope they can help with some info.

timv · 5th September 2007, 01:29 AM

Anybody?

Jim McDougall · 5th September 2007, 04:40 AM

Hi Timv,
While there is indeed considerable knowledge in the ranks here, it is often extremely specialized and sometimes those who are key in the study of Indian weapons are not at hand. While not specialized in the weapons of India, I will offer some observations that I hope will be of some help.

First of all, weapons in this condition are my favorite as they are true warriors usually that have not yet been worked over, and are often snubbed by dealers as well as many collectors. These old warriors often have thier own stories uncrusted in the dark patination, history itself! If I may suggest, please bring it to static condition, but dont overclean it.

This appears to be probably Rajput, or a talwar from Rajasthan regions and most likely early to mid 19th c. judging by its form, without consulting resources handy, this is my estimation. The deeply stamped cartouche is interesting, and since it is found under the hilt, is probably a makers stamp that may have numeric figures as these often had to do with contracts of blades produced I believe. It seems that armoury stamps typically were found on the blade visible in the fully mounted weapon.
I have seen similar deep cartouche stamps on early tulwar blades that were present in blade near the hilt, but clearly visible, and these seem to have held Urdu characters. I have not seen translations of the examples seen unfortunately. These blades often had the trisula at the center of the blade which was a traditional and iconographic symbol. One of the best resources available on such symbolism is Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" which although obviously focused on these weapons, also elaborates on the symbolism found in Indian weapons of much wider scope.

While your tulwar may be 'excavated' in its condition, its presence is outstanding, and the marking intriguing, worthy of continued research.
Thank you for posting it!

Best regards,
Jim

olikara · 6th September 2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Timv,
The deeply stamped cartouche is interesting, and since it is found under the hilt, is probably a makers stamp that may have numeric figures as these often had to do with contracts of blades produced I believe.

You are right, Jim. The numeric in the cartouche reads 141

Jim McDougall · 6th September 2007, 05:11 PM

Thank you so much for responding Olikara! I was hoping you would, and I had neglected to suggest looking at resources on the coins of India to help in identifying the characters in the cartouche. As you had pointed out earlier, this resource is often extremely helpful in examining markings and stamps on weapons.

All best regards,
Jim

timv · 1st November 2007, 08:35 PM

Thanks so much to both Jim and Olikara for your help in this! It brings me closer to an understanding of this (as you put it Jim) warrior weapon.

I know that there have been posts here in the past giving suggestions for traditional goop for reattaching the hilts of these swords but does anyone have thoughts on a modern material that I can use to do this without making it a permanent "repair"? I wouldn't like to use an epoxy or something that would be an irreversable addition. Any further help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for all the help so far!

rand · 1st November 2007, 09:19 PM

Used to have a reference for the material used to hold tulwar hilts, cannot find it at moment.

But the material used was most likely mastic, a resin material grown on one of the Greek islands, also used for making chewing gum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastic

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd November 2007, 05:21 PM

Hi timv, Olikara must have been standing on his head reading the number

, as it should be read from the back of the blade and not from the edge. The number is, however, so clear that there can be no doubt ‘141’ it is, but which dialect, could it be Kutch? What do you think Olikara? The ‘1’ is from my ‘translation’ sheet from Kutch, which not necessarily means much.

If the number was hidden under the langet it can’t have been an armoury mark, like Jim says, as an armoury mark was supposed to have been seen easily, so it must have been something else – a sword smith’s mark perhaps, but is a number not a strange mark for a sword smith? So let me come with a wild guess, the numbers could either have meant something else, or the smith could have been working at a very big place with many smiths, and his number was 141.

Do you know where it was found?

I think Rand's suggestion is a good one, I would never use epoxy.

Here it how it should look.

olikara · 2nd November 2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The number is, however, so clear that there can be no doubt ‘141’ it is, but which dialect, could it be Kutch? What do you think Olikara? The ‘1’ is from my ‘translation’ sheet from Kutch, which not necessarily means much.

Jens,
I can only say that the dialect is from a (North) Indian Hindu state. It could be Rajput, Kutchi, Marwari or any of the myriad of dialects in the Indian Northern and Central provinces. Perhaps, if we know where the sword was found, we can pin the location.

And as you suggested, the '1' is not written in the way that the Hindu '1' should be written. But I assume that it is only a case of artistic license on the part of the die (punch) maker.

Olikara

rand · 2nd November 2007, 07:03 PM

Does the dot after the "141" have any signifigance?

rand

olikara · 3rd November 2007, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Does the dot after the "141" have any signifigance?

rand

Rand,

It is not a dot but if you look closely 2 dots. In Sanskrit, 2 dots after a vowel/consonant denote the 'ah' sound. So, if I wanted to write 'Mah', I would write it as M:

It does not apply to numerals though. So my guess here is that it may have been used to denote a specific armoury or work batch.

Olikara

Pukka Bundook · 8th November 2007, 02:03 PM

Olikara,

It seems resin from the peepol (?) tree was used for securing hilts, but others know much more than me on this subject.
I did once re-attach a hilt using the original resin, broken up and heated, but it was a fight!

If you Did use epoxy,(with colouring) it isn't an irreversible step. If the item is gently heated, the epoxy turns soft and the hilt could be removed.

All the best,
Richard.

ariel · 10th November 2007, 07:24 PM

The best I found is an "Aquarium Putty". It is a plasticine-like stuff sold in any aquarium store. Similar stuff is sold in hardware stores; I do not remember the brand name but it is also epoxy putty for fixing motorboats.
Add to it orange and black paint ( art store) and squish well. Add colors as needed. Holds like a rock. Just tamp it very well around the tang.
I learned the trick from Artzi's thread on how to fix Kilij handle.

11th August 2007, 10:52 PM	#1
timv Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	Tulwar makers/armory mark help? Hello all! I've finally gotten around to addressing my loose hilt problem on a very sad old tulwar. I was told it was excavated and boy do I believe it! Unfortunately someone got hold of it and went to town with an angle grinder or something else equally destructive. Anyway, I did remove the hilt and (in the only place the grinder couldn't reach) under the hilt I found an interesting makers mark or armory mark. Can anyone help me identify it? I took the best pics I could - hope you can help.

28th August 2007, 03:54 AM	#4
tombstone777 Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 14	Can someone make a guess? Maybe somebody can make a guess at least at what this mark can stand for? I know that there are members here who are very knowledgeable about these weapons and their manufacture and I hope they can help with some info.

1st November 2007, 08:35 PM	#9
timv Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	Many Thanks! Thanks so much to both Jim and Olikara for your help in this! It brings me closer to an understanding of this (as you put it Jim) warrior weapon. I know that there have been posts here in the past giving suggestions for traditional goop for reattaching the hilts of these swords but does anyone have thoughts on a modern material that I can use to do this without making it a permanent "repair"? I wouldn't like to use an epoxy or something that would be an irreversable addition. Any further help is greatly appreciated. Thanks again for all the help so far!

1st November 2007, 09:19 PM	#10
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Mastic Used to have a reference for the material used to hold tulwar hilts, cannot find it at moment. But the material used was most likely mastic, a resin material grown on one of the Greek islands, also used for making chewing gum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastic rand

2nd November 2007, 05:21 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi timv, Olikara must have been standing on his head reading the number, as it should be read from the back of the blade and not from the edge. The number is, however, so clear that there can be no doubt ‘141’ it is, but which dialect, could it be Kutch? What do you think Olikara? The ‘1’ is from my ‘translation’ sheet from Kutch, which not necessarily means much. If the number was hidden under the langet it can’t have been an armoury mark, like Jim says, as an armoury mark was supposed to have been seen easily, so it must have been something else – a sword smith’s mark perhaps, but is a number not a strange mark for a sword smith? So let me come with a wild guess, the numbers could either have meant something else, or the smith could have been working at a very big place with many smiths, and his number was 141. Do you know where it was found? I think Rand's suggestion is a good one, I would never use epoxy. Here it how it should look. Attached Images

14th August 2007, 02:45 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hi Timy, Can't help with the mark, but it Is a very nice clear one. I got one a while ago that had also had the angle-grinder treatment, so had to be filed up and re-finished. If nothing else, it Does give you a reason to clean it, which otherwise you would not do...

5th September 2007, 01:29 AM	#5
timv Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	Anybody?

5th September 2007, 04:40 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Hi Timv, While there is indeed considerable knowledge in the ranks here, it is often extremely specialized and sometimes those who are key in the study of Indian weapons are not at hand. While not specialized in the weapons of India, I will offer some observations that I hope will be of some help. First of all, weapons in this condition are my favorite as they are true warriors usually that have not yet been worked over, and are often snubbed by dealers as well as many collectors. These old warriors often have thier own stories uncrusted in the dark patination, history itself! If I may suggest, please bring it to static condition, but dont overclean it. This appears to be probably Rajput, or a talwar from Rajasthan regions and most likely early to mid 19th c. judging by its form, without consulting resources handy, this is my estimation. The deeply stamped cartouche is interesting, and since it is found under the hilt, is probably a makers stamp that may have numeric figures as these often had to do with contracts of blades produced I believe. It seems that armoury stamps typically were found on the blade visible in the fully mounted weapon. I have seen similar deep cartouche stamps on early tulwar blades that were present in blade near the hilt, but clearly visible, and these seem to have held Urdu characters. I have not seen translations of the examples seen unfortunately. These blades often had the trisula at the center of the blade which was a traditional and iconographic symbol. One of the best resources available on such symbolism is Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" which although obviously focused on these weapons, also elaborates on the symbolism found in Indian weapons of much wider scope. While your tulwar may be 'excavated' in its condition, its presence is outstanding, and the marking intriguing, worthy of continued research. Thank you for posting it! Best regards, Jim

6th September 2007, 05:11 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Thank you so much for responding Olikara! I was hoping you would, and I had neglected to suggest looking at resources on the coins of India to help in identifying the characters in the cartouche. As you had pointed out earlier, this resource is often extremely helpful in examining markings and stamps on weapons. All best regards, Jim

2nd November 2007, 07:03 PM	#13
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Dot Does the dot after the "141" have any signifigance? rand

8th November 2007, 02:03 PM	#15
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Resin Olikara, It seems resin from the peepol (?) tree was used for securing hilts, but others know much more than me on this subject. I did once re-attach a hilt using the original resin, broken up and heated, but it was a fight! If you Did use epoxy,(with colouring) it isn't an irreversible step. If the item is gently heated, the epoxy turns soft and the hilt could be removed. All the best, Richard.

10th November 2007, 07:24 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The best I found is an "Aquarium Putty". It is a plasticine-like stuff sold in any aquarium store. Similar stuff is sold in hardware stores; I do not remember the brand name but it is also epoxy putty for fixing motorboats. Add to it orange and black paint ( art store) and squish well. Add colors as needed. Holds like a rock. Just tamp it very well around the tang. I learned the trick from Artzi's thread on how to fix Kilij handle.