Ngadal Meteng?

JustYS · 31st March 2023, 03:03 AM

From time to time I've encountered Keris that in the description it was written Ngadal Meteng (pregnant lizard?).

If my understanding is correct this term refers to the shape of the blade that is wider in the middle compared to the top and bottom hence like a pregnant lizard?

What is the significance of this shape? Is it stylistically linked to a certain era or region?

Thank you

JustYS · 5th April 2023, 03:05 AM

Judging by the silence to the above query, may I conclude that this is a new terminology? Probably dealer's invention?

I've done a search and only found this terminology used once by Alam Shah.

milandro · 5th April 2023, 09:58 AM

I see this name used in many adverts, however the spelling variations may reveal many more hits.

Since it is used by so many different sellers this must have, at least in Indonesia, some meaning to the people there.
I am afraid that assuming the lack of response here bears any significance to the wide world of the kris is probably done thinking that the popularity of this forum exceeds its actual scope. I see very few people browsing the pages.

JustYS · 5th April 2023, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I see this name used in many adverts, however the spelling variations may reveal many more hits.

Since it is used by so many different sellers this must have, at least in Indonesia, some meaning to the people there.
I am afraid that assuming the lack of response here bears any significance to the wide world of the kris is probably done thinking that the popularity of this forum exceeds its actual scope. I see very few people browsing the pages.

Thank you for your comments milandro.

I realized that there are several variations in spelling, however I’ve used “Meteng”, “Ngadal”, “Ngadhal” and “Kadal” and I’ve got only one hit beside this thread. What other spelling do you use?

Regarding the popularity of this forum or the number of people browsing this forum, I cannot confirm or negate.

Having said that, at least for my case, I can say that the pool of knowledge found in this forum is very considerable. What I like the most from this forum is that opinions/advices are given honestly and substantiated.

milandro · 5th April 2023, 12:52 PM

Kadal , Ngadal was suggested by Google.

As I wrote I find lots of ads with those terms, all Indonesian.

Even if we search the same terms the results of the searches are different , they depend on geographic location but also on your search history

examples (there are many more)

"....BARU PENATAS (DHAPUR), salah satu dapur lurus untuk tombak, simetris, pipih dan tipis. Mempunyai lekukan seperti pinggang di tengah, lebar bagian bawah pinggang lebih besar daripada bagian atas, diatas bagian metuk ada bungkul besar, permukaan bilah tombak diatas bungkul berbentuk ngadal meteng...."

and so on

David · 5th April 2023, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Kadal , Ngadal was suggested by Google.

As I wrote I find lots of ads with those terms, all Indonesian.

Even if we search the same terms the results of the searches are different , they depend on geographic location but also on your search history

examples (there are many more)

"....BARU PENATAS (DHAPUR), salah satu dapur lurus untuk tombak, simetris, pipih dan tipis. Mempunyai lekukan seperti pinggang di tengah, lebar bagian bawah pinggang lebih besar daripada bagian atas, diatas bagian metuk ada bungkul besar, permukaan bilah tombak diatas bungkul berbentuk ngadal meteng...."

and so on

While i realize your intention was to illustrate your point that google searches would lead to places on the internet where this term was used you should already be aware that it is not permitted to post commercial links on the forums pages. Please don't do that again, thank!

Rick · 5th April 2023, 04:57 PM

At least two of these links seem to be commercial Milandro. This is not allowed here, please remove them and read the rules concerning commercial activity here.

David · 5th April 2023, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I see this name used in many adverts, however the spelling variations may reveal many more hits.

Since it is used by so many different sellers this must have, at least in Indonesia, some meaning to the people there.
I am afraid that assuming the lack of response here bears any significance to the wide world of the kris is probably done thinking that the popularity of this forum exceeds its actual scope. I see very few people browsing the pages.

So what technology are you using to figure out how many people have browsed our site? This particular post has had 227 views late i checked. Most of our posts have views in the thousands. We actually have more than some truly very well informed contributors who participate on this page regularly. Some of these members have no interest whatsoever in stepping into the world of Facebook or other social media venues to discuss keris. I suspect that their input might here be the reason that you choose to post here as well.
Since the only links (which i deleted because they were commercial links) that you posted were from dealer sites, that could tell us about the origins of the term under discussion, so it was not necessarily a poor assumption on the JustYS's part? But the term does pop up in some non-commercial sites so it is probably something that has some more legitimate usage. Of course this tells us absolutely nothing about when in might have first appeared in the general keris lexicon. I, myself, am not a linguist and know very little about the Javanese language (we can assume that any terminology applied to keris that is Bahasa Indonesian is not in fact old. When this post first appeared i googled the term and did not find anything that could really answer JustYS's question. My online translators translated the term to mean "Denial of Pregnancy", but these online translators are notoriously bad at transcribing these languages into English. So i had hoped someone like Alan Maisey might come along with some information as he has a much better grasp on the language than i do.
I did find one source that gave the following description.
Ngadal Meteng: Ada-ada tonjolan besar, gemuk, dan tidak menonjol.
Again, bad google translator makes that "There are large, fat, and inconspicuous bulges." Though it translated Ada-ada as "there are" when i am sure that was indended to mean the ricikan of "ada-ada" which we probably all know by now as the central raised ridge of a keris blade.
I also found a brief definition and a diagram in an online Keris Lexicon. This seems to imply that JustYS had the wrong impression of the meaning of this term and that it refers to the cross-section of the blade, not the shape of the length of the blade. This is another page that also implies the term is in reference to cross-section of the blade.
https://bambangkhusenalmarie-wordpre...n&_x_tr_pto=sc (scroll to the bottom of this page)

jagabuwana · 6th April 2023, 01:32 AM

Our most senior and knowledgeable members here will tell you that they encounter terms that were not used or known to their teachers and other keris-literate people (the most literate, even) in their time of learning. The fact that some sellers use it nowadays might not mean much at all.

Anyway, we've established that ngadal meteng refers to a particular blade cross-sectional shape, one that is similar to closed curly brackets {}. It was not that difficult for me to find this on Google.

I doubt that it has an originally intended meaning or significance behind it. Given that we are talking about the keris I'm sure someone has come up with a meaning for it. And if enough people believe in that meaning then it is true. Retroactive continuity. I haven't encountered any of these meanings myself.

JustYS · 6th April 2023, 01:33 PM

Thank you David for the link and also clarifying that it refers to cross section.

I did not know that there are so many different cross sections.

Regarding the intended meaning and significance behind it, I’m not sure jagabuwana, but if you click the link from David you’ll see that the terms is used in Serat Centhini although using different words: ngadhal busung.

A. G. Maisey · 6th April 2023, 01:46 PM

I noted your invitation David. Thank you.

I did not previously comment, largely for two reasons, firstly I cannot recall having heard the term used in reference to a weapon blade, and secondly because it is listed in alpha order in EK.

Briefly, the EK entry just says that if the face of a blade of a keris or tombak is domed & looks like the back of a pregnant lizard (a small lizard, grass lizard, "kadal") then it is referred to as "ngadal meteng".

This can also be spelt as "ngadhal meteng".

As above, I did not know it as a keris or tombak term, however, I did and do know the word "ngadhalmeteng" (ie, one word, not two) in general usage as referring to something/anything as being big/swollen in the middle. My understanding is that this is Javanese but also occurs in BI.

It is not the name of a dhapur, & if used it should only be used as a descriptor of the blade face, not the full blade.

The term can be found in EK, published 2004, and also in the forerunner of EK, "Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional" published in 1988.

In respect of just how popular or otherwise this particular discussion group might or might not be, well, I have no idea at all.

Over a number of years I have had a real good, close look at a couple of FB keris sites, & yes, they do have enormous numbers of contributors, but personally I find the content of the overwhelming number of comments made in these FB groups to be lacking in substance, and from my own perspective, incredibly difficult to work with & to understand, the understanding thing is not at all related to use of BI or Javanese by some people, rather it is caused by some of the less than clear & rational things that are sometimes written.

I guess it comes down to what any particular person might wish to either contribute to, or gain from the content of any online discussion group in this particular field, and perhaps raw numbers of browsing people is not in any way indicative of the mindset of those who browse.

A. G. Maisey · 6th April 2023, 01:56 PM

The word "busung" is correctly only used for animals that are pregnant, when it is used to refer to a pregnant person, it is very crude, insulting usage.

However, the word can also mean bloating or swelling, and when this sense is intended, it can be used to refer to a person.

"Meteng", on the other hand is ngoko and is correctly used in this Javanese language level to refer to a pregnant person.

There are other words to refer to a pregnant person, both in Javanese & in BI.

31st March 2023, 03:03 AM	#1
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 138	Ngadal Meteng? From time to time I've encountered Keris that in the description it was written Ngadal Meteng (pregnant lizard?). If my understanding is correct this term refers to the shape of the blade that is wider in the middle compared to the top and bottom hence like a pregnant lizard? What is the significance of this shape? Is it stylistically linked to a certain era or region? Thank you

5th April 2023, 12:52 PM	#5
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	Kadal , Ngadal was suggested by Google. As I wrote I find lots of ads with those terms, all Indonesian. Even if we search the same terms the results of the searches are different , they depend on geographic location but also on your search history examples (there are many more) "....BARU PENATAS (DHAPUR), salah satu dapur lurus untuk tombak, simetris, pipih dan tipis. Mempunyai lekukan seperti pinggang di tengah, lebar bagian bawah pinggang lebih besar daripada bagian atas, diatas bagian metuk ada bungkul besar, permukaan bilah tombak diatas bungkul berbentuk ngadal meteng...." and so on Last edited by David; 5th April 2023 at 04:45 PM. Reason: Links to commercial sites removed!

6th April 2023, 01:33 PM	#10
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 138	Thank you David for the link and also clarifying that it refers to cross section. I did not know that there are so many different cross sections. Regarding the intended meaning and significance behind it, I’m not sure jagabuwana, but if you click the link from David you’ll see that the terms is used in Serat Centhini although using different words: ngadhal busung. Attached Images

6th April 2023, 01:46 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,882	I noted your invitation David. Thank you. I did not previously comment, largely for two reasons, firstly I cannot recall having heard the term used in reference to a weapon blade, and secondly because it is listed in alpha order in EK. Briefly, the EK entry just says that if the face of a blade of a keris or tombak is domed & looks like the back of a pregnant lizard (a small lizard, grass lizard, "kadal") then it is referred to as "ngadal meteng". This can also be spelt as "ngadhal meteng". As above, I did not know it as a keris or tombak term, however, I did and do know the word "ngadhalmeteng" (ie, one word, not two) in general usage as referring to something/anything as being big/swollen in the middle. My understanding is that this is Javanese but also occurs in BI. It is not the name of a dhapur, & if used it should only be used as a descriptor of the blade face, not the full blade. The term can be found in EK, published 2004, and also in the forerunner of EK, "Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional" published in 1988. In respect of just how popular or otherwise this particular discussion group might or might not be, well, I have no idea at all. Over a number of years I have had a real good, close look at a couple of FB keris sites, & yes, they do have enormous numbers of contributors, but personally I find the content of the overwhelming number of comments made in these FB groups to be lacking in substance, and from my own perspective, incredibly difficult to work with & to understand, the understanding thing is not at all related to use of BI or Javanese by some people, rather it is caused by some of the less than clear & rational things that are sometimes written. I guess it comes down to what any particular person might wish to either contribute to, or gain from the content of any online discussion group in this particular field, and perhaps raw numbers of browsing people is not in any way indicative of the mindset of those who browse. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 6th April 2023 at 02:01 PM.

5th April 2023, 03:05 AM	#2
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 138	Judging by the silence to the above query, may I conclude that this is a new terminology? Probably dealer's invention? I've done a search and only found this terminology used once by Alam Shah.

5th April 2023, 09:58 AM	#3
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	I see this name used in many adverts, however the spelling variations may reveal many more hits. Since it is used by so many different sellers this must have, at least in Indonesia, some meaning to the people there. I am afraid that assuming the lack of response here bears any significance to the wide world of the kris is probably done thinking that the popularity of this forum exceeds its actual scope. I see very few people browsing the pages.

5th April 2023, 04:57 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	At least two of these links seem to be commercial Milandro. This is not allowed here, please remove them and read the rules concerning commercial activity here.

6th April 2023, 01:32 AM	#9
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 280	Our most senior and knowledgeable members here will tell you that they encounter terms that were not used or known to their teachers and other keris-literate people (the most literate, even) in their time of learning. The fact that some sellers use it nowadays might not mean much at all. Anyway, we've established that ngadal meteng refers to a particular blade cross-sectional shape, one that is similar to closed curly brackets {}. It was not that difficult for me to find this on Google. I doubt that it has an originally intended meaning or significance behind it. Given that we are talking about the keris I'm sure someone has come up with a meaning for it. And if enough people believe in that meaning then it is true. Retroactive continuity. I haven't encountered any of these meanings myself.

6th April 2023, 01:56 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,882	The word "busung" is correctly only used for animals that are pregnant, when it is used to refer to a pregnant person, it is very crude, insulting usage. However, the word can also mean bloating or swelling, and when this sense is intended, it can be used to refer to a person. "Meteng", on the other hand is ngoko and is correctly used in this Javanese language level to refer to a pregnant person. There are other words to refer to a pregnant person, both in Javanese & in BI.