New shamshir: hoping for a diamond in the rough.

10thRoyal · 9th June 2024, 11:53 PM

I picked up a nondescriptly named "curved sword" at an auction recently and may have done alright for myself despite my initial disappointment at the blade. From the auction photo I could see some form of calligraphy on the blade but not much else. The grip looks almost like one of the "modernized military Khyber knife" grips I've seen on some sabers from areas around and in Afghanistan. When I got the sword, there was no visible wootz, just some oddly twinkling crystalline dots amid the rust. The cartouche seemed promising though so I went ahead and cleaned a portion of the blade and did a minor test etch (please don't judge the etch I'm still figuring that part out hahaha). My progress so far showed most of my initial worries were unfounded. I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts. I'll post an update when I can manage a respectable etching. The cartouche has a "172" at the bottom of it. Assuming the rest of the inscription is fiction, I'm assuming that might point to a Gregorian 1759 manufacturing date for the blade?

Battara · 10th June 2024, 04:28 AM

This is indeed a diamond in the rough. It looks like a Persian trade blade, but I'll let the wootz experts confirm this.

I agree with the Afghan hilt attribution. Congratulations.

Ian · 10th June 2024, 12:40 PM

I'm nowhere near a wootz expert, but the pattern seems very linear for wootz, with parallel lines bunched together near the sharpened edge. Looks maybe like a laminated blade to me, but let's hear from our more knowledgeable members.

GePi · 10th June 2024, 05:06 PM

Hi,
I agree that is a nice example of a late 19th century Afghan shamshir, and the blade earlier than the hilt.

I am quite certain the blade is wootz. These parallel lines along the cutting edge are a feature that is commonly seen on shamshir blades with nice watered wootz patterns, I have attached a close up of the pattern of my own Afghan shamshir that I managed to grab earlier this year.

As for the cartouche I don't think that it is a Persian trade blade, rather locally made.
These a bit crude looking single cartouches I have seen before on Afghan blades, I have added two mounted in pulwar hilts that seem to made with the same stamp.
Those two have written amal-e assadullah esfahani whereas your's has the bandeye shah-e velayat, the second part of the generic Persian double cartouche, but otherwise they look quite similar to me.

I feel the date seems a bit early, but on the other hand I don't think it would make much sense to fake a date that is after all still not that early, so it might be genuine.

Ian · 10th June 2024, 05:56 PM

Thank you GePi. As noted already, I'm no expert on wootz! I have seen similar linear markings along the edge of some laminated Filipino blades, which prompted my question about whether this was in fact wootz. You have provided clear evidence it is. That's a lovely blade that you have shown.

Nice pick-up 10th Royal!

Norman McCormick · 10th June 2024, 06:43 PM

Hi,
The hilt configuration would suggest it has undergone a local interpretation of a Western style sword hilt and guard much as has happened to this Khyber knife of mine. You'll notice the scabbard even has a drag although this is entirely pointless as the scabbard is far too short to be anywhere near ground level. This adaptation to the chape is just a rote copy of British sword scabbards of the period. As far as I could determine searching the net this was done at the end of the 19thC when Britain had influence in the region and locals were styling their military along Western lines. Nice sword and I will look forward to seeing the blade when cleaned up a little.
Regards,
Norman.

Battara · 11th June 2024, 07:07 PM

Another look changes my mind into the blade being a tight pattern damascus, which as Ian has said, has been found on some Moro pieces.

Battara · 11th June 2024, 07:14 PM

Here are pictures of my stolen gunong from years ago, with a close up of a wootz looking blade structure similar to your blade.

10thRoyal · 11th June 2024, 08:14 PM

Fantastic info from all of y'all, it is all very much appreciated . And Norman, that was my exact thought! I wasn't able to find another example of this hilt type on a shamshir but it did not seem to be out of the realm of possibility. The "new" hilt is unfortunately of low quality. My bottle of Ferric Chloride just arrived so I'll have some (hopefully) pretty pictures shortly.

And beautiful blades GePi. One of those pulwar blades would really make this a piece to display instead of the current grip which looks like the work of a Khyber Pass gunsmith, hahaha.

I'm open to it being laminated honestly. At the very least it was done well and isn't some tourist piece. Hopefully will get some clarity soon.

GePi · 12th June 2024, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10thRoyal

Fantastic info from all of y'all, it is all very much appreciated . And Norman, that was my exact thought! I wasn't able to find another example of this hilt type on a shamshir but it did not seem to be out of the realm of possibility. The "new" hilt is unfortunately of low quality. My bottle of Ferric Chloride just arrived so I'll have some (hopefully) pretty pictures shortly.

And beautiful blades GePi. One of those pulwar blades would really make this a piece to display instead of the current grip which looks like the work of a Khyber Pass gunsmith, hahaha.

I'm open to it being laminated honestly. At the very least it was done well and isn't some tourist piece. Hopefully will get some clarity soon.

I find these actually quite interesting, and like the khyber knifes with militarized hilts they are legit and there are quite a few examples still around. Here are two from Artzi, one with a more simple wootz pattern, perhaps local, but the other one with a really nice older Persian blade.

10thRoyal · 12th June 2024, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GePi

I find these actually quite interesting, and like the khyber knifes with militarized hilts they are legit and there are quite a few examples still around. Here are two from Artzi, one with a more simple wootz pattern, perhaps local, but the other one with a really nice older Persian blade.

Those are excellent examples! The second has an almost identical style grip to my own. I guess I need to do a more thorough search of examples.

I managed a marginally better etching with the Ferric Chloride. It does look more like wootz towards the edge now but gets less so towards the spine. Almost like it was heat treated composed of multiple steels.

mariusgmioc · 12th June 2024, 08:21 PM

Yes, it appears to be Persian wootz but the etching is very poor.
You need to polish the blade to grit 2000 or even 2500 to be able to better reveal the pattern.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21732

Sakalord364 · 12th June 2024, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GePi

I find these actually quite interesting, and like the khyber knifes with militarized hilts they are legit and there are quite a few examples still around. Here are two from Artzi, one with a more simple wootz pattern, perhaps local, but the other one with a really nice older Persian blade.

10thRoyal it’s interesting the hilt on your example appears irregularly made, perhaps the smith was a novice or it’s just a result of wear and tear.

An example in original condition looks quite nice actually.

These sword hilts were imitations of Afghan army pattern hilts, and were handmade by local smiths and sold to officers who wanted a fancy private purchase sword instead of their issued sword. That why I think the quality of the hilt is variable, since each smith made them by hand and one smith might be more skilled than the other.

The army issue swords these were inspired by were made in the military factory with modern European machinery, which is why they were quite uniform quality wise

9th June 2024, 11:53 PM	#1
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 63	New shamshir: hoping for a diamond in the rough. I picked up a nondescriptly named "curved sword" at an auction recently and may have done alright for myself despite my initial disappointment at the blade. From the auction photo I could see some form of calligraphy on the blade but not much else. The grip looks almost like one of the "modernized military Khyber knife" grips I've seen on some sabers from areas around and in Afghanistan. When I got the sword, there was no visible wootz, just some oddly twinkling crystalline dots amid the rust. The cartouche seemed promising though so I went ahead and cleaned a portion of the blade and did a minor test etch (please don't judge the etch I'm still figuring that part out hahaha). My progress so far showed most of my initial worries were unfounded. I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts. I'll post an update when I can manage a respectable etching. The cartouche has a "172" at the bottom of it. Assuming the rest of the inscription is fiction, I'm assuming that might point to a Gregorian 1759 manufacturing date for the blade? Attached Images

10th June 2024, 05:06 PM	#4
GePi Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Germany Posts: 95	Hi, I agree that is a nice example of a late 19th century Afghan shamshir, and the blade earlier than the hilt. I am quite certain the blade is wootz. These parallel lines along the cutting edge are a feature that is commonly seen on shamshir blades with nice watered wootz patterns, I have attached a close up of the pattern of my own Afghan shamshir that I managed to grab earlier this year. As for the cartouche I don't think that it is a Persian trade blade, rather locally made. These a bit crude looking single cartouches I have seen before on Afghan blades, I have added two mounted in pulwar hilts that seem to made with the same stamp. Those two have written amal-e assadullah esfahani whereas your's has the bandeye shah-e velayat, the second part of the generic Persian double cartouche, but otherwise they look quite similar to me. I feel the date seems a bit early, but on the other hand I don't think it would make much sense to fake a date that is after all still not that early, so it might be genuine. Attached Images

10th June 2024, 06:43 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,578	Hi, The hilt configuration would suggest it has undergone a local interpretation of a Western style sword hilt and guard much as has happened to this Khyber knife of mine. You'll notice the scabbard even has a drag although this is entirely pointless as the scabbard is far too short to be anywhere near ground level. This adaptation to the chape is just a rote copy of British sword scabbards of the period. As far as I could determine searching the net this was done at the end of the 19thC when Britain had influence in the region and locals were styling their military along Western lines. Nice sword and I will look forward to seeing the blade when cleaned up a little. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

11th June 2024, 07:14 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,154	Here are pictures of my stolen gunong from years ago, with a close up of a wootz looking blade structure similar to your blade. Attached Images

10th June 2024, 04:28 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,154	This is indeed a diamond in the rough. It looks like a Persian trade blade, but I'll let the wootz experts confirm this. I agree with the Afghan hilt attribution. Congratulations.

10th June 2024, 12:40 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,073	I'm nowhere near a wootz expert, but the pattern seems very linear for wootz, with parallel lines bunched together near the sharpened edge. Looks maybe like a laminated blade to me, but let's hear from our more knowledgeable members.

10th June 2024, 05:56 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,073	Thank you GePi. As noted already, I'm no expert on wootz! I have seen similar linear markings along the edge of some laminated Filipino blades, which prompted my question about whether this was in fact wootz. You have provided clear evidence it is. That's a lovely blade that you have shown. Nice pick-up 10th Royal!

11th June 2024, 07:07 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,154	Another look changes my mind into the blade being a tight pattern damascus, which as Ian has said, has been found on some Moro pieces.

11th June 2024, 08:14 PM	#9
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 63	Fantastic info from all of y'all, it is all very much appreciated . And Norman, that was my exact thought! I wasn't able to find another example of this hilt type on a shamshir but it did not seem to be out of the realm of possibility. The "new" hilt is unfortunately of low quality. My bottle of Ferric Chloride just arrived so I'll have some (hopefully) pretty pictures shortly. And beautiful blades GePi. One of those pulwar blades would really make this a piece to display instead of the current grip which looks like the work of a Khyber Pass gunsmith, hahaha. I'm open to it being laminated honestly. At the very least it was done well and isn't some tourist piece. Hopefully will get some clarity soon.

12th June 2024, 08:21 PM	#12
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,889	Yes, it appears to be Persian wootz but the etching is very poor. You need to polish the blade to grit 2000 or even 2500 to be able to better reveal the pattern. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21732