Congo or not?

Miguel · 29th July 2016, 08:37 PM

Hello Everyone,

I would be grateful if someone could verify the origin of this Knife/Sword. I think it may be Ngombe from the Congo but I am not sure. It is a simple but pleasing design with incised patterns on both sides of the double edged blade. On half of one side on each side of the blade looks like a stylised snake or lizard beautifully done, in my opinion. The handle seems to be bone fixed very firmly to the blade shank.
O/L16.5 ins, Blade length 13.25 ins x 3 ins wide.
Thanking you in anticipation
Regards
Miguel

Rick · 29th July 2016, 08:43 PM

I've got a feeling that's not bone.

Ian · 29th July 2016, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I've got a feeling that's not bone.

I agree, Rick. Miguel, can you show us a picture of the end of the hilt to see what this material looks like in cross section? That would be very informative.

Ian.

Congoblades · 30th July 2016, 02:09 AM

Nice Lokele knife, Congo. Is there a hole in de back of the handle? Most of them have a weight on the handle.

Tim Simmons · 30th July 2016, 10:39 AM

Looks like ivory to me. Ni e piece.

Miguel · 30th July 2016, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I agree, Rick. Miguel, can you show us a picture of the end of the hilt to see what this material looks like in cross section? That would be very informative.

Ian.

Hello Ian, thanks for your reply interesting I thought it was bone. I have not got a photo showing the end but will take one and post it to see if you can make out what the material is, it may not be till Monday.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 30th July 2016, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Nice Lokele knife, Congo. Is there a hole in de back of the handle? Most of them have a weight on the handle.

Hello Congoblades, thanks for your reply, much appreciated, there is a hole in the end of the handle that the tang is bent over in. you will be able to see when I post the photo requested by Ian. Have you any thoughts on the handle material, significance of the lizard/snake decoration and possible age? I love these weapons of the Congo thir shapes and decoration fascinate me.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 30th July 2016, 08:38 PM

Hello Rick and Tim, thanks for your reply Ive always thought it to be bone, it will be interesting to see what the others make of it when the see a photo of the end.
Regards
Miguel

mariusgmioc · 30th July 2016, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Rick and Tim, thanks for your reply Ive always thought it to be bone, it will be interesting to see what the others make of it when the see a photo of the end.
Regards
Miguel

I'm pretty sure it's ivory.

Maybe some cleaning/polishing will return it to its former glory. Not that you can't leave it like it is now.

Congoblades · 30th July 2016, 09:07 PM

It is definitely an old one, how old exactly is hard to tell (some experts can

). To be safe I would say first quarter of the 20th century.
If the handle has the same age as the blade it would be ivory for sure.
About the decoration, I don't see a lizard or snake.

Tim Simmons · 31st July 2016, 09:12 PM

Taken out of the symmetry of the blade there could be a snake in the decoration, a common motif on African blades.

Congoblades · 31st July 2016, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Taken out of the symmetry of the blade there could be a snake in the decoration, a common motif on African blades.

Africa is a very large and diverse continent, saying that it is a common motif on blades is a bit strange. If you want to see a snake in it that's fine for me, but why should there be a snake on a knife from the So, Olombe or Lokele blacksmiths who produces such type of knives?

Miguel · 2nd August 2016, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Ian, thanks for your reply interesting I thought it was bone. I have not got a photo showing the end but will take one and post it to see if you can make out what the material is, it may not be till Monday.
Regards
Miguel

Hi Ian, sorry for the delay but I could not remember which box I had stored it in and as I have, over the years, accumulated a large amount of weapons it as taken me much longer to find than I intended. Will have to number boxes and catalogue contents

Any way I have taken a few more photos and shown the end of the handle from which I hope you can tell whether or not it is bone or ivory. Incidently can you see a snake or lizard on the blade decoration.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 2nd August 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoblades

It is definitely an old one, how old exactly is hard to tell (some experts can

). To be safe I would say first quarter of the 20th century.
If the handle has the same age as the blade it would be ivory for sure.
About the decoration, I don't see a lizard or snake.

Hello Congoblades, I probabely have an over active imagination and can definitely see a stylised snake in the decoration. It just looks like one even though it may not have been the intention of the Smith who produced it. I think it is due to the decoration following the outline of the blade.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 2nd August 2016, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Taken out of the symmetry of the blade there could be a snake in the decoration, a common motif on African blades.

Hi Tim, I'm pleased that you also can make out a snake in the decoration but as I explained to Congoblades I think it is due to it following the blade contour.
Regards
Miguel

Pieje · 2nd August 2016, 09:24 PM

It's indeed similar to Lokele knives but the general shape of the blade and its decoration point towards the BENGE.

Check this old thread for an example of such BENGE sword in the book "Panga na visu".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16673

First quarter of the 20th century seems ok.
Handle material seems definitely ivory to me.

asomotif · 2nd August 2016, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I've got a feeling that's not bone.

Toothbone

asomotif · 2nd August 2016, 11:17 PM

Ps. nice weapon.

I would not clean or polish anything on this one.
Maybe rub the hilt firmly with a clean cotton cloth. Often this is enough to remove old dirt and or grease.

Best regards,
Willem

Miguel · 3rd August 2016, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ps. nice weapon.

I would not clean or polish anything on this one.
Maybe rub the hilt firmly with a clean cotton cloth. Often this is enough to remove old dirt and or grease.

Best regards,
Willem

Hi Willem, my thoughts entirely.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 3rd August 2016, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pieje

It's indeed similar to Lokele knives but the general shape of the blade and its decoration point towards the BENGE.

Check this old thread for an example of such BENGE sword in the book "Panga na visu".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16673

First quarter of the 20th century seems ok.
Handle material seems definitely ivory to me.

Hello Pieje, thank you for your reply and link. As you say the blade shape and decoration on the Benge sword are identical even the two small holes which I thought represented the snake`s eyes, I find it confusing to differentiate between the varius tribal weapons when the blade shapes are so similar but I think the decoration seems to clinch this one as Benge. Thanks again for your interest.
Regards
Miguel

Ian · 3rd August 2016, 08:47 PM

Miguel:

That is definitely elephant ivory on the hilt. The criss-cross pattern in cross section is typical of ivory.

As far as a snake or lizard, I can see the general form of a reptile but it may be something else. It's always hard to tell with these geometric shapes and without knowledge of the culture and its artistic preferences I would say it is difficult to be certain what we are looking at.

Ian

Miguel · 4th August 2016, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Miguel:

That is definitely elephant ivory on the hilt. The criss-cross pattern in cross section is typical of ivory.

As far as a snake or lizard, I can see the general form of a reptile but it may be something else. It's always hard to tell with these geometric shapes and without knowledge of the culture and its artistic preferences I would say it is difficult to be certain what we are looking at.

Ian

Hi Ian, thanks for your reply, it would seem that everyone is in agreement that the hilt is ivory. It also appears that the origin of this weapon is Benge due to the blade shape and particularly the decoration which I am sure now is purely decoration and not meant to represent a snake or lizard, it is just that it follows the shape of the blade which makes it appear such.
I have wondered about the size of the hilt as it is to small for my hand. The original owner must have had a small hand.
Do you know of any othe reference works on African weapons written in English besides Christopher Spring`s work as all the references on these weapons seem mainly German, French and Belgian works, if so I would be grateful if you would let me know.
Regards
Miguel

mariusgmioc · 4th August 2016, 09:14 PM

It is as I suspected: elephant ivory.

Pieje · 5th August 2016, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Do you know of any othe reference works on African weapons written in English besides Christopher Spring`s work as all the references on these weapons seem mainly German, French and Belgian works, if so I would be grateful if you would let me know.
Regards
Miguel

There are indeed only a few books written in English.
This is a good one, not a thick book, but also not expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/African-Metal.../dp/B001E2D01E

Miguel · 5th August 2016, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pieje

There are indeed only a few books written in English.
This is a good one, not a thick book, but also not expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/African-Metal.../dp/B001E2D01E

Thanks Pieje I am indebted to you and will endeavour to purchase this book.

Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 5th August 2016, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

It is as I suspected: elephant ivory.

Go to the front of the class

Regards
Miguel

kronckew · 5th August 2016, 10:04 PM

watch out for CITES. the touchy feely brigade will be out to get you if you ever need to ship it thru a national border or sell it, you will need proof it is antique, only a note from the original elephant is acceptable to them. maybe not even then. see recent thread here on desecration of antique weapons that had antique ivory by those wonderfully informed people at the UK border force for bonham's.

Miguel · 7th August 2016, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

watch out for CITES. the touchy feely brigade will be out to get you if you ever need to ship it thru a national border or sell it, you will need proof it is antique, only a note from the original elephant is acceptable to them. maybe not even then. see recent thread here on desecration of antique weapons that had antique ivory by those wonderfully informed people at the UK border force for bonham's.

Thanks for the reminder, its getting pretty ridiculous here in the UK regarding all types of edged weapons antique or otherwise. In the past we were one of the worst offenders of Elephant hunting. I deplor the indiscriminate slaughter of any animal but it seems senseless to me to destroy works of art made from the ivory of an animal killed 50, a hundred or more years ago because you cant prove it to their satisfaction,
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 7th August 2016, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pieje

There are indeed only a few books written in English.
This is a good one, not a thick book, but also not expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/African-Metal.../dp/B001E2D01E

Hi Pieje, I forgot to ask if you know the location in the Congo of the Benge people and if they have another name. I have spent some time searching for them and although the name appears that is all no other information about them. That is why I am wondering if they have another name as some other ethnic groups in he Congo have.
Regards
Miguel

29th July 2016, 08:37 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Congo or not? Hello Everyone, I would be grateful if someone could verify the origin of this Knife/Sword. I think it may be Ngombe from the Congo but I am not sure. It is a simple but pleasing design with incised patterns on both sides of the double edged blade. On half of one side on each side of the blade looks like a stylised snake or lizard beautifully done, in my opinion. The handle seems to be bone fixed very firmly to the blade shank. O/L16.5 ins, Blade length 13.25 ins x 3 ins wide. Thanking you in anticipation Regards Miguel Attached Images

30th July 2016, 09:07 PM	#10
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	It is definitely an old one, how old exactly is hard to tell (some experts can ). To be safe I would say first quarter of the 20th century. If the handle has the same age as the blade it would be ivory for sure. About the decoration, I don't see a lizard or snake. Attached Images

31st July 2016, 09:12 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Taken out of the symmetry of the blade there could be a snake in the decoration, a common motif on African blades. Attached Images

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29th July 2016, 08:43 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	I've got a feeling that's not bone.

30th July 2016, 02:09 AM	#4
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Nice Lokele knife, Congo. Is there a hole in de back of the handle? Most of them have a weight on the handle.

30th July 2016, 10:39 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Looks like ivory to me. Ni e piece.

30th July 2016, 08:38 PM	#8
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hello Rick and Tim, thanks for your reply Ive always thought it to be bone, it will be interesting to see what the others make of it when the see a photo of the end. Regards Miguel

2nd August 2016, 09:24 PM	#16
Pieje Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 132	It's indeed similar to Lokele knives but the general shape of the blade and its decoration point towards the BENGE. Check this old thread for an example of such BENGE sword in the book "Panga na visu". http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16673 First quarter of the 20th century seems ok. Handle material seems definitely ivory to me.

2nd August 2016, 11:17 PM	#18
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,237	Ps. nice weapon. I would not clean or polish anything on this one. Maybe rub the hilt firmly with a clean cotton cloth. Often this is enough to remove old dirt and or grease. Best regards, Willem

3rd August 2016, 08:47 PM	#21
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,522	Miguel: That is definitely elephant ivory on the hilt. The criss-cross pattern in cross section is typical of ivory. As far as a snake or lizard, I can see the general form of a reptile but it may be something else. It's always hard to tell with these geometric shapes and without knowledge of the culture and its artistic preferences I would say it is difficult to be certain what we are looking at. Ian

4th August 2016, 09:14 PM	#23
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	It is as I suspected: elephant ivory.

5th August 2016, 10:04 PM	#27
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	watch out for CITES. the touchy feely brigade will be out to get you if you ever need to ship it thru a national border or sell it, you will need proof it is antique, only a note from the original elephant is acceptable to them. maybe not even then. see recent thread here on desecration of antique weapons that had antique ivory by those wonderfully informed people at the UK border force for bonham's.