Are Asadollah cartouches/signatures found on Ottoman blades? Or only Persian blades?

Sakalord364 · 26th June 2025, 11:48 PM

I was intrigued by this exerpt which stated asadollah signatures were found on ottoman blades, not just on Persian blades. Is this true?

serdar · 27th June 2025, 12:58 PM

About lion of god, asadullah blades (original ones) are very rare, by original ones i mean blades produced in time of asadullah (thing is, that still it is not known was that a blade smith or a blade shop, or marking of status or quality, it is still unknown and it will stay unknown)blade of high quality atributed to that time and place, later there are many blades with atribution and markings to asadullah but they are latter and not produced by that person/shop/marking of status or quality.
They are persian origin and only persian origin, ottomans did get them in trades and used them, like some europeans in trade or war trophys, but ottomans never produced them.

Lee · 27th June 2025, 02:10 PM

To state the obvious, just in case it isn't:

Persian blades marked with the cartouches of those celebrated smiths are commonly also found in Mughal Indian and Ottoman mounts.

There is about a three hundred year span when so-marked blades were actually made and the vast majority could not have been made within any single working human craftsman's lifetime.

Serdar, this sounds more than a little like the situation with the +ULFBERHT+ markings on early European blades. Thank you for the insight.

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2025, 04:40 PM

In accord with what has been said, Assad Allah of Isfahan has been presumed to be one of the greatest Persian swordsmiths (1571-1629) and who worked in the time of Shah Abbas I the great Safavid ruler. ("Islamic Armourers and Their Works", L.A.Mayer, Geneva 1962).

It seems that there was mention that the name may have had a regal connection that had to do with taxation and being exempt due to that distinction. Therefore it is unclear as to whether actual person, or possibly may have been shop or production entity etc.
Obviously with blades bearing that inscription it is impossible to have been made by an individual over two centuries, so this does fall into the 'ANDREA FERARA' tradition of Scottish blades, as well as the mysterious Frankish ULFBERTH blades.

The blades bearing this name as well as their notably trade blade version with the lion in the sun pictograph were profoundly distributed throughout the Ottoman Empire where Persian blades were of highest esteem. There are numbers of Ottoman pala with these kinds of blades as well as tulwars in India. With the examples made in original fashion with inscription in cartouche and this name, most appear of course to be simply using the name Assad Allah.

The best description of the history on this topic "The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", Oliver Pinchot, Vol.40, #1, Feb.2002, Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting.

Also: "Islamic Armorers and Their Works", L.A. Mayer, Geneva, 1962

"Asadallah Esfahani", A.S. Melikian-Chirvani, in Encyclopedia Iranica , Vol.II, fasc. 7,1987

Sakalord364 · 28th June 2025, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

To state the obvious, just in case it isn't:

Persian blades marked with the cartouches of those celebrated smiths are commonly also found in Mughal Indian and Ottoman mounts.

There is about a three hundred year span when so-marked blades were actually made and the vast majority could not have been made within any single working human craftsman's lifetime.

Serdar, this sounds more than a little like the situation with the +ULFBERHT+ markings on early European blades. Thank you for the insight.

Sorry I should have specified, I know actual persian blades were used by ottomans, but I was specifically wondering if ottomans for example forged their own blades and imitated the asadullah mark on them- this is a purported example from an old auction, but I cannot read the cartouche to confirm

Oliver Pinchot · 28th June 2025, 02:35 PM

In the case of this sword, the question is moot.
The inscription reads Mash'Allah, meaning God has willed it,
rather than Assad Allah.

Sakalord364 · 28th June 2025, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

In the case of this sword, the question is moot.
The inscription reads Mash'Allah, meaning God has willed it,
rather than Assad Allah.

Thanks for the clarification, I’ve seen it mentioned by collectors that Ottomans and Indians imitated asadullah cartouches on blades they forged themselves, should this be discounted as fiction? I know at least Afghans imitated these marking on Afghan blades, but I was wondering if this was also practiced among Ottomans and Indians.

Jim McDougall · 28th June 2025, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakalord364

Thanks for the clarification, I’ve seen it mentioned by collectors that Ottomans and Indians imitated asadullah cartouches on blades they forged themselves, should this be discounted as fiction? I know at least Afghans imitated these marking on Afghan blades, but I was wondering if this was also practiced among Ottomans and Indians.

Would be interested to know of examples or references showing Afghan blades with spurious examples of the pictograph lion or signature of Assad Allah.
Also, the Ottoman and Indian examples with these blades, are there references saying these blades were made by swordsmiths in those regions? The only examples I have seen are locally hilted in their styles mounted with trade blades of the familiar pictograph type.

Sakalord364 · 28th June 2025, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Would be interested to know of examples or references showing Afghan blades with spurious examples of the pictograph lion or signature of Assad Allah.
Also, the Ottoman and Indian examples with these blades, are there references saying these blades were made by swordsmiths in those regions? The only examples I have seen are locally hilted in their styles mounted with trade blades of the familiar pictograph type.

Here is one Afghan example with a spurious Asadullah marking, from the forum.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18215

My hypothesis is due to how fashionable asadullah blades were Afghans copied the markings, similar to how Italian eyelash markings were copied by Indian craftsman on their blades. I wonder if only the afghans did this, or if it was widespread among makers of shamshir style blades

Jim McDougall · 29th June 2025, 12:27 AM

Thank you for adding that old thread, its always good to see the 'good old days' years ago and the great writers who seldom appear these days.
Its good to see the Assad Allah signature (even though spurious) as opposed to the pictograph blades which I am more used to.

On the spurious use of renowned signatures and marks, this is not exclusive to any region or period, and was of course a common practice constantly with sword blades. Persian blades were much admired and desired throughout North India, Central Asia and Middle East.
Afghan arms makers were masterful at copying all elements of weapons and duplicating arms.

The copying of the sickle marks (Genoan and Styrian) on Indian blades seems most common on the paluoar, the Afghan version of Indian tulwar (Egerton 1885). The use of these sickle marks became popularly used outside North Italy (not just Genoa) via the prolific diffusion of trade blades to many foreign ports through the centuries.

Using that analogy, it is quite understandable that the Assad Allah signature would be copied widely as a mark of quality, but I cannot say which blade producers of shamshir blades outside Iran might have used them.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

26th June 2025, 11:48 PM	#1
Sakalord364 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 68	Are Asadollah cartouches/signatures found on Ottoman blades? Or only Persian blades? I was intrigued by this exerpt which stated asadollah signatures were found on ottoman blades, not just on Persian blades. Is this true? Attached Images

27th June 2025, 12:58 PM	#2
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 149	About lion of god, asadullah blades (original ones) are very rare, by original ones i mean blades produced in time of asadullah (thing is, that still it is not known was that a blade smith or a blade shop, or marking of status or quality, it is still unknown and it will stay unknown)blade of high quality atributed to that time and place, later there are many blades with atribution and markings to asadullah but they are latter and not produced by that person/shop/marking of status or quality. They are persian origin and only persian origin, ottomans did get them in trades and used them, like some europeans in trade or war trophys, but ottomans never produced them.

27th June 2025, 02:10 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 938	To state the obvious, just in case it isn't: Persian blades marked with the cartouches of those celebrated smiths are commonly also found in Mughal Indian and Ottoman mounts. There is about a three hundred year span when so-marked blades were actually made and the vast majority could not have been made within any single working human craftsman's lifetime. Serdar, this sounds more than a little like the situation with the +ULFBERHT+ markings on early European blades. Thank you for the insight.

27th June 2025, 04:40 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,337	In accord with what has been said, Assad Allah of Isfahan has been presumed to be one of the greatest Persian swordsmiths (1571-1629) and who worked in the time of Shah Abbas I the great Safavid ruler. ("Islamic Armourers and Their Works", L.A.Mayer, Geneva 1962). It seems that there was mention that the name may have had a regal connection that had to do with taxation and being exempt due to that distinction. Therefore it is unclear as to whether actual person, or possibly may have been shop or production entity etc. Obviously with blades bearing that inscription it is impossible to have been made by an individual over two centuries, so this does fall into the 'ANDREA FERARA' tradition of Scottish blades, as well as the mysterious Frankish ULFBERTH blades. The blades bearing this name as well as their notably trade blade version with the lion in the sun pictograph were profoundly distributed throughout the Ottoman Empire where Persian blades were of highest esteem. There are numbers of Ottoman pala with these kinds of blades as well as tulwars in India. With the examples made in original fashion with inscription in cartouche and this name, most appear of course to be simply using the name Assad Allah. The best description of the history on this topic "The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", Oliver Pinchot, Vol.40, #1, Feb.2002, Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting. Also: "Islamic Armorers and Their Works", L.A. Mayer, Geneva, 1962 "Asadallah Esfahani", A.S. Melikian-Chirvani, in Encyclopedia Iranica , Vol.II, fasc. 7,1987

28th June 2025, 02:35 PM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 466	In the case of this sword, the question is moot. The inscription reads Mash'Allah, meaning God has willed it, rather than Assad Allah.

29th June 2025, 12:27 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,337	Thank you for adding that old thread, its always good to see the 'good old days' years ago and the great writers who seldom appear these days. Its good to see the Assad Allah signature (even though spurious) as opposed to the pictograph blades which I am more used to. On the spurious use of renowned signatures and marks, this is not exclusive to any region or period, and was of course a common practice constantly with sword blades. Persian blades were much admired and desired throughout North India, Central Asia and Middle East. Afghan arms makers were masterful at copying all elements of weapons and duplicating arms. The copying of the sickle marks (Genoan and Styrian) on Indian blades seems most common on the paluoar, the Afghan version of Indian tulwar (Egerton 1885). The use of these sickle marks became popularly used outside North Italy (not just Genoa) via the prolific diffusion of trade blades to many foreign ports through the centuries. Using that analogy, it is quite understandable that the Assad Allah signature would be copied widely as a mark of quality, but I cannot say which blade producers of shamshir blades outside Iran might have used them.