Bichoq? Or something else

[DaveA]

Hello all,

Here is a knife I recently acquired, advertised as "Ottoman". I would put it into the bichoq family, but the shape of the upswept tip and a slightly concave back gives me pause.

Any thoughts?

Best Regards,

Dave A

[Kubur]

Hi Dave
Again a strange stuff, the forte looks like these Saharian daggers.
The blade looks like an Ottoman bishaq. And the hilt is a mix of North African and Balkans. It's the reason why I will say Algerian or Tunisan bishaq. You didn't mention the size...
Best,
Kubur

[Kubur]

and same decoration on the tabuka...

[DaveA]

Thank you Kabur! I love a mystery.

Regarding size, this knife is 10 ¼ inch overall, the blade 6 ½ inches. The width is precisely 1 inch at the forte and ¼ inch thick, tapering distally to the tip.

I will post some better photos soon after I clean it up a bit.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

[DaveA]

I cleaned it up a bit. Here are some close up photos showing more detail.

[Kubur]

it's a nice piece!
My feeling is that the blade was made in the Balkans or in the Golden Horn then the handle and forte were added in Tunisia.
It happened frequently with swords and pistols.
But maybe I'm completely wrong and it's a pure North African knife.
I hope you will have more comments from the forumnites.
Best,
Kubur

[Iain]

I would agree that the bolster plate with the four petal motif (a common Berber element found deep into the Sahel) is probably later than the blade. Certainly looks like the decorative elements belong in the North African sphere.

A lovely piece, I really like the blade style.

[ariel]

It is Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chak). There were multiple varieties of these knives, from different localities and with different local sub-names indicatiing different purposes. The ones with the upturned point ( forgot its local moniker:-)) were allegedly unsuitable for stabbing and were therefore used ( or classified) as utility knives.
It is rare to find an old one like that. The market is awash in modern productions, partly from Uzbekistan, partly from Ujghur area of China. But this one is a keeper.

Good eye and good buy!

[DaveA]

Thanks Ariel.

I know the Soviets confiscated many of these knives in usbekistan in an effort to stamp out local culture, and as a result the old ones are quite scarce. I have two other pichoq, one from Tashkent and one from Chust, good steel, but both more modern in style and unique in their own way. So my eye was tuned! Nevertheless, I have not seen this shape before and so I am glad for the feedback.

I'm fascinated by how this style is found in very similar form and name from N. Africa to the Balkans (bıçak) to Uzbekistan (pichoq) to India ( pichangatti).

Dave A

[ariel]

Bichaq and pichok , - simple: Uzbeks are Turks. Same mother language, with some phonetic and pronunciation variations. Turkish Kilij is Klych in Uzbekistan.


But I do not know whether pichangatti is linguistically or ethnically related.

[Sancar]

Originally Posted by ariel

Bichaq and pichok , - simple: Uzbeks are Turks. Same mother language, with some phonetic and pronunciation variations. Turkish Kilij is Klych in Uzbekistan.


But I do not know whether pichangatti is linguistically or ethnically related.

Exactly; and since Baburid Mughals were also ethnic Turks, it is propable that pichangetti also have some Turkic origin in its etimology.

[ariel]

My only problem with it is that pichangattis were from Coorg and often were carried in ensemble with Ayda Kattis. Both were characteristic of Mappila ( Mopla ), who were not of Turkish, but rather Arab ( Oman? Yemen?) origin.

The pichangatti/pichok/bichaq connection is a very tempting one, but may be a bit more complex than a simple similarity of sounds.

[Sancar]

Originally Posted by ariel

My only problem with it is that pichangattis were from Coorg and often were carried in ensemble with Ayda Kattis. Both were characteristic of Mappila ( Mopla ), who were not of Turkish, but rather Arab ( Oman? Yemen?) origin.

The pichangatti/pichok/bichaq connection is a very tempting one, but may be a bit more complex than a simple similarity of sounds.

Bıçak means "knife" in Turkish language, so it doesn't have to be a certain blade form connection. In the case of "pichangatti", it might only be the word that travelled. There are many such terms in Indian languages that migrated from Turkish and Persian languages.

In the case of Özbek "pichok", there is no confusion. It is the exact same word, just different pronounciation.

[ariel]

Fully agree with the latter.
As to the former.. Would love to believe that 's the case, but still have an uneasy feeling of uncertainty.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by ariel

Fully agree with the latter.
As to the former.. Would love to believe that 's the case, but still have an uneasy feeling of uncertainty.

Pichangatti apparently means "hand knife" (Egerton). As the Tamil Word for knife is katti, the word pichangatti doesn't seem related to bıçak.
Andreas

[ariel]

Phonetic similarity can play dirty games .
I know a fellow who has a theory that Hebrew was the mother-tongue of Eastern European Slavs.
He thinks that Russian city Orel is in reality Or -el, God's light; another Russian city, Kostroma, is Hebrew Kos Truma: Chalice of Charity.
And the crowning argument: the capital of Poland, Warszawa is in reality a mispronounced Beer Sheva, the capital of Negev region in Israel.

And there is no way shaking his private opinion:-)

[Devadatta]

As for me, it's not Uzbek and definetly not African. I see here typical Uyghur knife from Yangissar city

[DaveA]

Hello,

I'm very interested in why you are sure about this attribution. I know nothing of the Uyghur and will greatly appreciate any insight you can provide regarding the Uyghur and knives such as this one. Thank you.

B/r,

Dave A.

[Ian]

Devadatta:

Is not Yangissar City in Uzbekistan? Are you suggesting that the knife comes from Uzbekistan, but is tied ethnically to the Uyghurs? That is a very interesting and precise attribution.

Ian.

[Sancar]

I have both contemporarily made Uygur and Özbek knives (bıçak) in my collection. Those knives are basically exactly the same, just like the Özbek and Uygur tribes of Karluk subbbranch of Turkic people those "bıçak"s come from. Basically a tomayto-tomahto situation IMHO

[kronckew]

google 'uighur knives' (or 'uyghur knives') & select 'images', brings up a multitude of the knives they are famous for making right up to the present. many of them look like yours to greater or lesser extents. nice knife.

[BANDOOK]

Traditional Uzbek utility knife. Uzbek pchak knives are hand made by artisans and sold at bazaars in Uzbekistan (Central Asia). Blade is made of carbon SHH15 steel with “Tamga” Islamic marks (stars and half-moon). Roe deer antler handle
Traditional Uyghur utility knife. Uyghur pchak knives are hand made by artisans and sold at bazaars in different countries of Central Asia where Uyghur people live (Xinjiang, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan). Curved blade (kayik) is made of carbon SHH15 steel. Handle is made of brass with plastic middle part. Leather sheath.
CHEERS RAJESH