Club from the Philippines

Nonoy Tan · 25th August 2007, 02:49 PM

I thought of sharing this rare find. It is a club from the Bogkalut - a once fierce group of people from Northern Luzon, neighbors of the llongot.

Has anybody else seen anything similar?

[IMG]

Tim Simmons · 28th August 2007, 08:51 PM

My kind of thing. Is this yours? if so can you tell us more about it, what are the spikes? and close ups.

VVV · 28th August 2007, 09:25 PM

Is it related to this tribe?

http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/200406_..._Noheadgear_de

Michael

VANDOO · 29th August 2007, 01:00 AM

A VERY INTERESTING CLUB, I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY PHILIPPINE CLUBS BUT AM SURE THEY WERE USED AT SOME TIME IN THE PAST. THE MARTIAL ART OF STICK FIGHTING IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL AS CAN BE SEEN BY THE LINK. I HAVE SEEN A TREE THAT HAS SPIKES LIKE THESE BUT DON'T KNOW THE NAME OR COUNTRYS OF ORIGIN, SOME OF THE SPIKES ON THE TRUNK CAN BE QUITE LARGE AND CLIMBING SUCH A TREE UNTHINKABLE.

WHAT INFORMATION DO YOU HAVE ON IT AND ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY OTHER CLUBS FROM THE PHILIPPINES.

josh stout · 29th August 2007, 01:20 AM

I am pretty sure the club is made from some sort of rattan. Young rattan has spikes that look almost exactly like those on the club.
Josh

edit:
OK maybe not as the broken bit does not look like rattan at all. Still, as mentioned, it has a very familiar look.

Matt Splatt · 29th August 2007, 01:50 AM

Whats the deal with spikes? Are they thorns grown from the wood? Nice club by the way.

VANDOO · 29th August 2007, 02:02 AM

OOPS

CourseEight · 29th August 2007, 02:03 AM

It's the wrong part of the world, but the spikes look like that of a Floss Silk tree:

http://pizzabytheslice.com/photos/im..._thorns_15.jpg

http://mgonline.com/chorisia.html

I've a few around my house and the resemblence seems close. Unfortunately they are tropical from South America. Maybe a relative of some kind lives in the Philippines? That is of course unless the spikes are carved, then it's just a coincidence...

--Radleigh

Nonoy Tan · 29th August 2007, 11:33 AM

There is reference to clubs being used in the Philippines ("The collection of primitive weapons and armor of the Philippine islands in the United States National museum" by Herbert Krieger 1926). However, there is no image of a club therein; and I found no club amongst the specimens kept at the Smithsonian Institution. Thus, information has been elusive.

Here is a close-up pic
[IMG]

Tim Simmons · 29th August 2007, 05:36 PM

Perhaps it is from South America. It must be the first piece I have seen on this forum not including colonists work. It would not get a patina like that without use. What size is it? Some "Oceanic" clubs are sometimes fish clubs or priest, for bigger fish than trout or salmon. I believe the club is/was the main weapon of Brazilian native people? I did see an old metal tipped spear, 18th century, in a special exhibition at BM a few years ago. Wish I had bought the catalogue now. Trade steel obviously. I had no idea of the sophistcation of the native cities in the Amazon basin.

fearn · 29th August 2007, 06:25 PM

Hi All,

As a botanist, I'm pretty that the spikes are natural, and I'm pretty sure it's not from the silk floss tree. There's a simple reason for this: silk floss wood is quite light. I've picked up a trunk that was two meters long and 10 cm wide, and it only weighed a kilo or two. While the spikes on silk trunks are impressive, the wood behind them isn't.

Now, I'm not sure what plant it's from, but my first guess was rattan as well. A cross-sectional view of the butt end might help, as it will show whether the club was made from a palm or a broadleaf tree.

F

VANDOO · 29th August 2007, 08:19 PM

I WILL AGREE THE SPIKES ARE NATURAL TO THE PLANT, THE TYPES OF RATTAN I AM FAMILIAR WITH ARE ALSO LIGHT WEIGHT AND WOULD MAKE A POOR CLUB.
A CLUB SHOULD BE HARD AND HAVE ENOUGH WEIGHT TO BREAK SKULLS AND BONES OR AT LEAST KNOCK OUT AN ENEMY. THE PRESENCE OF SPINES WOULD MAKE A WEAPON LOOK MORE DANGEROUS BUT IF IT WAS TOO LIGHT TO PREFORM A CLUBS MAIN FUNCTIONS IT WOULD JUST MAKE MORE BLOOD BUT BE LESS EFFECIENT.
THERE ARE MANY FORMS OF PLANTS WITH THORNS ALL OVER THE WORLD AS PLANTS DEVELOPED SHARP POINTY SPINES AND SHARP EDGES FOR PROTECTION LONG BEFORE MANKIND CAME ALONG. PLANTS HAVE PROVIDED WEAPONS AND TOOLS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES WE HAVE USED THE THORNS,SPINES AND POISONS IN MOST SOCIETYS.

THE QUESTION WOULD BE IS THE PHILIPPINE CLUB HARD AND HEAVY ENOUGH OR ARE THE SPINES NATURALLY POSINOUS?

CourseEight · 29th August 2007, 08:50 PM

According to Wikipedia, the wood density of a floss silk is 0.27 g/cm^3. Though no dimensions are given, figuring the club to be about 1 m long and 5 cm in diameter based on the pictures, and figuring it to be a cylinder, would give it a weight of 0.27*100*2.5^2*pi = 530 g, agreeing with fearn rather light for a club, yes? Of course, if poison is used all bets are off, and if Tim's suggestion that it may be South American is true, the natives there do certainly use poisons on their darts. Of course, they do in the Phillipines too I think. Dimensions, weight, and a picture of the cross section WOULD certainly help. I was unable to find a wood density for young spiny rattan...

RSWORD · 29th August 2007, 10:21 PM

Too light for a war club but perhaps just right for a fish whomper.

fearn · 30th August 2007, 01:13 AM

Hi RSword,

I'd respectfully disagree.

1. Force increases directly with mass, but as the square of speed. Heavy is good, but (within limits) there is a beneficial tradeoff between speed and weight. While I'm all in favor of heavy wooden clubs, I wouldn't count this one out just because it wasn't, say, ebony or ironwood.

B. Those spikes concentrate the force somewhat.

III. Fish (generally) have smaller brains than most people, meaning that you need to really whack them over the head to kill them. People, on the other hand, have thin skins, and getting tattooed with a spiked club (especially a number of times) could end a fight, even if it didn't break bones.

I'd guess it's a person-whacker, not a fish-whomper.

As for poison, my guess is that it's not poisonous. The reason is that whoever made it peeled the bark away for the grip. In many plants, that would bare a large area containing poisonous sap right where the hand of the owner went. If one blister or cut would mean that you got poisoned by your own weapon, I'd bet that they'd wrap the grip pretty thoroughly. It doesn't look like they've done it here.

My 0.02 cents.

F

Andrew · 30th August 2007, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

I thought of sharing this rare find. It is a club from the Bogkalut - a once fierce group of people from Northern Luzon, neighbors of the llongot.

Has anybody else seen anything similar?

[IMG]

Welcome, Nonoy Tan. You sound quite confident this is from a specific group, did you collect this item from them, or did it come with some other provenance?

Incidentally, would you happen to be an underwater photographer?

Tim Simmons · 30th August 2007, 08:36 AM

Except for the top two which are, 800g and 600g. The rest are under 500g. The must deadly and efficient to my mind is the one with the off set ball and curved halft which is only 350g.

Fishing in a small canoe and you hoick on board a 5-6ft fish one had better stop it flapping about. The same tool might stop a 5-6ft man flapping about even if people have heavier bones.

CourseEight · 30th August 2007, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Except for the top two which are, 800g and 600g. The rest are under 500g. The must deadly and efficient to my mind is the one with the off set ball and curved halft which is only 350g.

Wow, I had no idea they were so light. I really have to get one of those...

kronckew · 31st August 2007, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Fishing in a small canoe and you hoick on board a 5-6ft fish one had better stop it flapping about. The same tool might stop a 5-6ft man flapping about even if people have heavier bones.

caution, slight thread veer ahead.

anecdote: reminds me of a patrol we went on in the USCG Cutter i was assigned to in kodiak, we stopped overnight one sat. in a small bay in the aleutians for some respite from the weather, one of the crew went fishing, caught a fluke (flatfish similar to a plaice or flounder) that was about 6ft. & a few hundred pounds. it took him a few hrs. to get it to the surface, the captain allowed the ready boat to be lowered to pick it up, but it was still quite mobile & the coxswain was a bit leery of being in the boat with it, so he thwacked it a few times with an oar. no effect. they wound up getting a .44 magnum out of the armoury and shot it in the head 6 times. it became a bit more cooperative then & it was with effort hauled into the boat and eventually on board & down to the galley. the crew (about 60) ate on it for quite a few days. tasty. did not have any knobkerries on board, or i'm sure we would have tried one.

we now return you to the regularly scheduled program.

Nonoy Tan · 31st August 2007, 12:48 PM

The club is 70 cm in lenght and 0.3 kilograms in weight. Here are more pics.

Based on documentation, this specimen was collected from Bilanse Village, Nueva Vizcaya (in the 1890's ???). Further research confirmed that the village was predominantly Bogkalut and Ilongot. The club also came with spears that were of the early-type of Ilongot.

CourseEight · 31st August 2007, 01:28 PM

Definitely NOT floss silk; the cross section looks nothing like that, though the weight is about right. I can't find any cross sectional pictures of rattan, but I think it looks something like that? Or some other kind of palm...

kai · 31st August 2007, 08:08 PM

One more vote for rattan - nice find!

Regards,
Kai

fearn · 31st August 2007, 09:15 PM

Thanks for the end pics, Nonoy.

I agree with Kai, partially. It's definitely palm wood, probably rattan.

The wood is definitely a monocot, not a broadleaf (aka dicot) tree. Dicots are the ones that produce tree rings, and if it was a dicot, we would either see no pattern or the classic bulls-eye radial pattern.

Monocots include palms (such as rattan), and they evolved to be trees independent of the monocots. Instead of being organized radially, palm wood has bundles all over the place, as we see here.

Bit of a botany lesson, but for anybody who didn't know, this is how you tell palm wood from some other hardwood.

F

25th August 2007, 02:49 PM	#1
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Club from the Philippines I thought of sharing this rare find. It is a club from the Bogkalut - a once fierce group of people from Northern Luzon, neighbors of the llongot. Has anybody else seen anything similar? [IMG] Attached Images

28th August 2007, 08:51 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	Nice! My kind of thing. Is this yours? if so can you tell us more about it, what are the spikes? and close ups.

29th August 2007, 11:33 AM	#9
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	There is reference to clubs being used in the Philippines ("The collection of primitive weapons and armor of the Philippine islands in the United States National museum" by Herbert Krieger 1926). However, there is no image of a club therein; and I found no club amongst the specimens kept at the Smithsonian Institution. Thus, information has been elusive. Here is a close-up pic [IMG] Attached Images

31st August 2007, 12:48 PM	#20
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	More specs The club is 70 cm in lenght and 0.3 kilograms in weight. Here are more pics. Based on documentation, this specimen was collected from Bilanse Village, Nueva Vizcaya (in the 1890's ???). Further research confirmed that the village was predominantly Bogkalut and Ilongot. The club also came with spears that were of the early-type of Ilongot. Attached Images

28th August 2007, 09:25 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Is it related to this tribe? http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/200406_..._Noheadgear_de Michael

29th August 2007, 01:00 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY INTERESTING CLUB, I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY PHILIPPINE CLUBS BUT AM SURE THEY WERE USED AT SOME TIME IN THE PAST. THE MARTIAL ART OF STICK FIGHTING IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL AS CAN BE SEEN BY THE LINK. I HAVE SEEN A TREE THAT HAS SPIKES LIKE THESE BUT DON'T KNOW THE NAME OR COUNTRYS OF ORIGIN, SOME OF THE SPIKES ON THE TRUNK CAN BE QUITE LARGE AND CLIMBING SUCH A TREE UNTHINKABLE. WHAT INFORMATION DO YOU HAVE ON IT AND ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY OTHER CLUBS FROM THE PHILIPPINES.

29th August 2007, 01:20 AM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I am pretty sure the club is made from some sort of rattan. Young rattan has spikes that look almost exactly like those on the club. Josh edit: OK maybe not as the broken bit does not look like rattan at all. Still, as mentioned, it has a very familiar look.

29th August 2007, 01:50 AM	#6
Matt Splatt Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 31	Whats the deal with spikes? Are they thorns grown from the wood? Nice club by the way.

29th August 2007, 02:02 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OOPS

29th August 2007, 02:03 AM	#8
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	It's the wrong part of the world, but the spikes look like that of a Floss Silk tree: http://pizzabytheslice.com/photos/im..._thorns_15.jpg http://mgonline.com/chorisia.html I've a few around my house and the resemblence seems close. Unfortunately they are tropical from South America. Maybe a relative of some kind lives in the Philippines? That is of course unless the spikes are carved, then it's just a coincidence... --Radleigh

29th August 2007, 05:36 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	Perhaps it is from South America. It must be the first piece I have seen on this forum not including colonists work. It would not get a patina like that without use. What size is it? Some "Oceanic" clubs are sometimes fish clubs or priest, for bigger fish than trout or salmon. I believe the club is/was the main weapon of Brazilian native people? I did see an old metal tipped spear, 18th century, in a special exhibition at BM a few years ago. Wish I had bought the catalogue now. Trade steel obviously. I had no idea of the sophistcation of the native cities in the Amazon basin.

29th August 2007, 06:25 PM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, As a botanist, I'm pretty that the spikes are natural, and I'm pretty sure it's not from the silk floss tree. There's a simple reason for this: silk floss wood is quite light. I've picked up a trunk that was two meters long and 10 cm wide, and it only weighed a kilo or two. While the spikes on silk trunks are impressive, the wood behind them isn't. Now, I'm not sure what plant it's from, but my first guess was rattan as well. A cross-sectional view of the butt end might help, as it will show whether the club was made from a palm or a broadleaf tree. F

29th August 2007, 08:19 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WILL AGREE THE SPIKES ARE NATURAL TO THE PLANT, THE TYPES OF RATTAN I AM FAMILIAR WITH ARE ALSO LIGHT WEIGHT AND WOULD MAKE A POOR CLUB. A CLUB SHOULD BE HARD AND HAVE ENOUGH WEIGHT TO BREAK SKULLS AND BONES OR AT LEAST KNOCK OUT AN ENEMY. THE PRESENCE OF SPINES WOULD MAKE A WEAPON LOOK MORE DANGEROUS BUT IF IT WAS TOO LIGHT TO PREFORM A CLUBS MAIN FUNCTIONS IT WOULD JUST MAKE MORE BLOOD BUT BE LESS EFFECIENT. THERE ARE MANY FORMS OF PLANTS WITH THORNS ALL OVER THE WORLD AS PLANTS DEVELOPED SHARP POINTY SPINES AND SHARP EDGES FOR PROTECTION LONG BEFORE MANKIND CAME ALONG. PLANTS HAVE PROVIDED WEAPONS AND TOOLS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES WE HAVE USED THE THORNS,SPINES AND POISONS IN MOST SOCIETYS. THE QUESTION WOULD BE IS THE PHILIPPINE CLUB HARD AND HEAVY ENOUGH OR ARE THE SPINES NATURALLY POSINOUS?

29th August 2007, 08:50 PM	#13
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	According to Wikipedia, the wood density of a floss silk is 0.27 g/cm^3. Though no dimensions are given, figuring the club to be about 1 m long and 5 cm in diameter based on the pictures, and figuring it to be a cylinder, would give it a weight of 0.271002.5^2*pi = 530 g, agreeing with fearn rather light for a club, yes? Of course, if poison is used all bets are off, and if Tim's suggestion that it may be South American is true, the natives there do certainly use poisons on their darts. Of course, they do in the Phillipines too I think. Dimensions, weight, and a picture of the cross section WOULD certainly help. I was unable to find a wood density for young spiny rattan...

29th August 2007, 10:21 PM	#14
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Too light for a war club but perhaps just right for a fish whomper.

30th August 2007, 01:13 AM	#15
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi RSword, I'd respectfully disagree. 1. Force increases directly with mass, but as the square of speed. Heavy is good, but (within limits) there is a beneficial tradeoff between speed and weight. While I'm all in favor of heavy wooden clubs, I wouldn't count this one out just because it wasn't, say, ebony or ironwood. B. Those spikes concentrate the force somewhat. III. Fish (generally) have smaller brains than most people, meaning that you need to really whack them over the head to kill them. People, on the other hand, have thin skins, and getting tattooed with a spiked club (especially a number of times) could end a fight, even if it didn't break bones. I'd guess it's a person-whacker, not a fish-whomper. As for poison, my guess is that it's not poisonous. The reason is that whoever made it peeled the bark away for the grip. In many plants, that would bare a large area containing poisonous sap right where the hand of the owner went. If one blister or cut would mean that you got poisoned by your own weapon, I'd bet that they'd wrap the grip pretty thoroughly. It doesn't look like they've done it here. My 0.02 cents. F

30th August 2007, 08:36 AM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	Except for the top two which are, 800g and 600g. The rest are under 500g. The must deadly and efficient to my mind is the one with the off set ball and curved halft which is only 350g. Fishing in a small canoe and you hoick on board a 5-6ft fish one had better stop it flapping about. The same tool might stop a 5-6ft man flapping about even if people have heavier bones.

31st August 2007, 01:28 PM	#21
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Definitely NOT floss silk; the cross section looks nothing like that, though the weight is about right. I can't find any cross sectional pictures of rattan, but I think it looks something like that? Or some other kind of palm...

31st August 2007, 08:08 PM	#22
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,236	One more vote for rattan - nice find! Regards, Kai

31st August 2007, 09:15 PM	#23
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks for the end pics, Nonoy. I agree with Kai, partially. It's definitely palm wood, probably rattan. The wood is definitely a monocot, not a broadleaf (aka dicot) tree. Dicots are the ones that produce tree rings, and if it was a dicot, we would either see no pattern or the classic bulls-eye radial pattern. Monocots include palms (such as rattan), and they evolved to be trees independent of the monocots. Instead of being organized radially, palm wood has bundles all over the place, as we see here. Bit of a botany lesson, but for anybody who didn't know, this is how you tell palm wood from some other hardwood. F