A What is it ? any ideas.

katana · 24th February 2007, 10:25 PM

Hi Gentlemen,
any ideas as to origins, name etc. interesting weapon or tool

...my only reservation is the thinness of the shaft. Thankyou

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=017

wolviex · 24th February 2007, 11:27 PM

Actually it looks like typical Indian war-hammer - ZAGNUL, as it was called in one catalogue, but verification of this name is much appreciated. Some catalogues called this weapon hatchet or even an axe, but I'm not sure why if the weapon was used only for striking not choping. In this shape known also in Persia and Turkey but from 18th century, not earlier. Earliest one has a beak straight or slightly curved, and were very very dangerous

katana · 24th February 2007, 11:48 PM

Thankyou Wolviex,
the seller attributed this to Africa..... presumably because of the snake skin covered handle

Looks quite painful

I was concerned the handle may have been a little thin for a serious weapon and began to think it might be ceremonial.
The 'spear' point looks capable of piercing armour, not certain what the curved point (on the opposite side) would be used for

Obviously it is sharp ...but if it was used just for 'stabbing' blows then it could have been made straight

PUFF · 25th February 2007, 02:26 AM

Look like elephant 's hook with a hammer head. Hook part 's only for signaling the animal, not harming. I have seen hooks with spear or blade, but not hammer one.

FenrisWolf · 25th February 2007, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Thankyou Wolviex,
the seller attributed this to Africa..... presumably because of the snake skin covered handle

Looks quite painful

I was concerned the handle may have been a little thin for a serious weapon and began to think it might be ceremonial.
The 'spear' point looks capable of piercing armour, not certain what the curved point (on the opposite side) would be used for

Obviously it is sharp ...but if it was used just for 'stabbing' blows then it could have been made straight

The first thing I thought when I saw it was that the finish was entirely too smooth and clean for typical African workmanship, where the rule of thumb seems to be "that's good enough to kill someone". That's not to say it might not have migrated through Africa on its way to its current home; the Brits brought a lot of Indians over to South Africa during colonial times, and the weapon might have travelled with them.

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2007, 12:48 AM

Hi Katana,
This one has been a puzzler, and the head on this certainly does not correspond with any of the battle axes or hafted weapons I can find of either Africa or India. While it does have a spear point which brings to mind the Indian 'zaghnal', a form of dagger axe, it really only has elemental similarity.
The downward sloping tail form at the rear of the head brings to mind the elephant goad 'ankus', which of course this is not.

As has been stated, the finish does not seem African, so I decided to look into possible European association. In "Boarders Away", W.Gilkerson, 1991, p.33, a boarding axe termed 'antrebiler' used in Denmark and Sweden is shown from early 19th c. which has similar tail type poll (=rear of head) but the small curved axe head, and not the spear point . Specifically noted is the downward sloping pick head.It is noted that similar type axes were used in other countries but none specify the distinct spear point type, despite the taillike poll. In "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Neumann,1973, p.268) there are examples of 'spiked tomahawks' which have these distinct spikes at the back of the head.
There are also examples of pipe tomahawks which were furnished to Indians by the French that had spear type blades on the head and were called spontoon tomahawks, and were of the end of the 18th c. Obviously this is not a tomahawk, especially not a pipe tomahawk, but the spear shaped head with French association is worthy of note.

Possibly this axe head may be European and of the 19th century. In Neumann it is noted that 'belt axes' with straight simple handles were common in the 18th c. and also that the spiked poll was well known in Europe (p.258, Neumann) with popularity waning in the mid 19th c.

The African suggestion here seems mostly keyed on the 'snake skin' cover on the haft, which may well be that of the Waran or Nile Monitor Lizard, which is commonly applied to edged weapons in Nilotic regions. Quite possibly through colonial activity such a belt axe might have found its way into either Egypt or the Sudan, and possibly even as early as the Napoleonic period, though I cannot tell the age of this item by photos.

Although purely speculation, it seems worthy of consideration and I would welcome further discussion and other observations.

All best regards,
Jim

Valjhun · 26th February 2007, 05:32 PM

Well, probably I'm wrong, but to me it seems one of those Sudanese "copies" of indo persian weaponry (haladies, axes, ecc.)

In that case this would be a Sudanese reinterpretation of an indo persian war hammer (with a zaghnalic beak) wich is in "per se" an interpretation of the medieval european war hammer.

In any case, I agree that the finish is not very African, exept the reptile skin...

wolviex · 26th February 2007, 07:42 PM

Well, there is something I don't understand, so please enlighten me.

Seller writes it is african, made with use of SNAKE skin, received from CALCUTTA which is in INDIA! dated 1870.

If received from India then it couldn't be a copy
If made with use of snake skin, then not necessary African piece
Obviously... until I missed something.

Thanks

katana · 26th February 2007, 09:51 PM

I am wondering whether the 'chevron' pattern on the point might help find it's origins

24th February 2007, 10:25 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	A What is it ? any ideas. Hi Gentlemen, any ideas as to origins, name etc. interesting weapon or tool ...my only reservation is the thinness of the shaft. Thankyou http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=017

24th February 2007, 11:27 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Actually it looks like typical Indian war-hammer - ZAGNUL, as it was called in one catalogue, but verification of this name is much appreciated. Some catalogues called this weapon hatchet or even an axe, but I'm not sure why if the weapon was used only for striking not choping. In this shape known also in Persia and Turkey but from 18th century, not earlier. Earliest one has a beak straight or slightly curved, and were very very dangerous Attached Images

26th February 2007, 09:51 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I am wondering whether the 'chevron' pattern on the point might help find it's origins Attached Images

24th February 2007, 11:48 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thankyou Wolviex, the seller attributed this to Africa..... presumably because of the snake skin covered handle Looks quite painful I was concerned the handle may have been a little thin for a serious weapon and began to think it might be ceremonial. The 'spear' point looks capable of piercing armour, not certain what the curved point (on the opposite side) would be used for Obviously it is sharp ...but if it was used just for 'stabbing' blows then it could have been made straight

25th February 2007, 02:26 AM	#4
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Look like elephant 's hook with a hammer head. Hook part 's only for signaling the animal, not harming. I have seen hooks with spear or blade, but not hammer one.

26th February 2007, 12:48 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Katana, This one has been a puzzler, and the head on this certainly does not correspond with any of the battle axes or hafted weapons I can find of either Africa or India. While it does have a spear point which brings to mind the Indian 'zaghnal', a form of dagger axe, it really only has elemental similarity. The downward sloping tail form at the rear of the head brings to mind the elephant goad 'ankus', which of course this is not. As has been stated, the finish does not seem African, so I decided to look into possible European association. In "Boarders Away", W.Gilkerson, 1991, p.33, a boarding axe termed 'antrebiler' used in Denmark and Sweden is shown from early 19th c. which has similar tail type poll (=rear of head) but the small curved axe head, and not the spear point . Specifically noted is the downward sloping pick head.It is noted that similar type axes were used in other countries but none specify the distinct spear point type, despite the taillike poll. In "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Neumann,1973, p.268) there are examples of 'spiked tomahawks' which have these distinct spikes at the back of the head. There are also examples of pipe tomahawks which were furnished to Indians by the French that had spear type blades on the head and were called spontoon tomahawks, and were of the end of the 18th c. Obviously this is not a tomahawk, especially not a pipe tomahawk, but the spear shaped head with French association is worthy of note. Possibly this axe head may be European and of the 19th century. In Neumann it is noted that 'belt axes' with straight simple handles were common in the 18th c. and also that the spiked poll was well known in Europe (p.258, Neumann) with popularity waning in the mid 19th c. The African suggestion here seems mostly keyed on the 'snake skin' cover on the haft, which may well be that of the Waran or Nile Monitor Lizard, which is commonly applied to edged weapons in Nilotic regions. Quite possibly through colonial activity such a belt axe might have found its way into either Egypt or the Sudan, and possibly even as early as the Napoleonic period, though I cannot tell the age of this item by photos. Although purely speculation, it seems worthy of consideration and I would welcome further discussion and other observations. All best regards, Jim

26th February 2007, 05:32 PM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, probably I'm wrong, but to me it seems one of those Sudanese "copies" of indo persian weaponry (haladies, axes, ecc.) In that case this would be a Sudanese reinterpretation of an indo persian war hammer (with a zaghnalic beak) wich is in "per se" an interpretation of the medieval european war hammer. In any case, I agree that the finish is not very African, exept the reptile skin...

26th February 2007, 07:42 PM	#8
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Well, there is something I don't understand, so please enlighten me. Seller writes it is african, made with use of SNAKE skin, received from CALCUTTA which is in INDIA! dated 1870. If received from India then it couldn't be a copy If made with use of snake skin, then not necessary African piece Obviously... until I missed something. Thanks