TAKE CARE

Yannis · 9th April 2006, 11:05 AM

I was in an auction in England few days ago. I was shocked when I saw in real some pieces that in catalogue were looking excellent.

At least a fine kard and a pair of pistols were totally fakes!

All these pieces were sold high to telephone and internet bidders. I am sure these people will cry when they receive them. These items got not even one bid from the room. Some guys behind me were laughing when the telephone bidders were fighting on the kard.

I was thinking all these days if I have to write the name of the auction house. I decided not. Anyway it was a great lesson and I share this with you as such.

B.I · 9th April 2006, 12:03 PM

hi yannis,
i too was at the auction (probably sitting near you :-) and know the piece you are talking about. but, what you must realise that the internet is just a small very part of arms collecting/dealing.
when i viewed the sale there was an islamic dealer viewing the same pieces. a few days later, at auction, he sat on the other side of a friend of mine who knew him. just before that dagger came up, he whispered across that he was going to bid and i could see it marked in his catalogue. i told him it was a fake and he was surprised. he urgently asked if i was sure and i said i was, which left enough doubt for him to leave his paddle down. he bought a few pieces in that sale and i know that he doesnt deal in arms. his main thing is islamic art and his clientel is completely unrelated to the collectors on this forum. in fact, the islamic art world is almost completely unrelated to the islamic arms world, in that they have thier own dealers, their own buyers and their own price structure (2-3 times that of arms).
i have no doubt that he would have bought it, and i also have no doubt that he could have sold it for a profit. he examined the piece closely, and still couldnt see that it was obviously wrong.
when i went into the auction house, i saw a japanese dealer of strong standing and knowledge that knows my intrest, and he asked if i had seen that fabulous dagger. he hadnt examined it of course, but was fully aware of the one it was modelled on that has been published.
so, i feel there was no danger of anyone on this forum buying it. the price as too high (even in estimate) for anyone who knows what they are doing to bid blind. also, the telephone bid and absentee bids were not necessarily done by those that hadnt viewed the sale. stuttgart fair was on at the same time and many people viewed the sale, the left bids and went abroad.
all said, i too was shocked at its price. also, there was a shamshir in the sale with modern hilt and mounts. the auction house omitted dating both pieces, so they were well covered.
i think the advice should be to never buy without examining first, but if everyone adhered to that, they ebay would be out of business.
maybe the advice should be to know the market well before you spend 1000s. that particular piece has been circulating in small numbers over the last few years.
as you say, it looked great in the photos and the description was 'glossed' over.

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2006, 12:13 PM

When buying online only bid what you are prepared to loose, this should also stop you paying too much for things that are actually okay.

fernando · 10th April 2006, 02:14 PM

Buying fakes is allways hard to digest.
Maybe not so hard in the internet circuit, when one ends up betrayed by the poor and or ilusive pictures shown, or and by the shrewdness applied in the article description, by the seller.
The amount of money at stacke also agrevates the pain, i think.
Last christmas i offered me a gift, a cased pair of percussion pistols, from a local sort of antiquary shop. As i don't fancy the guy, i had my daughter to make the buying procedure... after i had a quick view through the ( shaded ) window where they were exposed, and felt excited with their aspect ... which was my great error.
Getting home i opened the pack, and the pistols were a fake.
My real christmas gift was my daughter getting immediately back to the shop and, without much struggle, bringing the cheque back ... one for 1500 euros ( 1800 dollars ).
If the money was irrecuperable, i would stand for a good place in a pole for naiveté.
fernando

Tim Simmons · 10th April 2006, 05:33 PM

We have all been here, one way or another. Sometimes several times

.

B.I · 10th April 2006, 05:51 PM

fernando,
i think we have all been caught out at some point. the nature of learning and collecting i suppose. you did well to send in the cavalry (your daughter)
yannis,
i wonder if it was me sitting behind you. i was laughing with a friend during that lot, but maybe the whole room was as well!

Mark · 10th April 2006, 09:37 PM

Good call not naming the auction house.

9th April 2006, 11:05 AM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	TAKE CARE I was in an auction in England few days ago. I was shocked when I saw in real some pieces that in catalogue were looking excellent. At least a fine kard and a pair of pistols were totally fakes! All these pieces were sold high to telephone and internet bidders. I am sure these people will cry when they receive them. These items got not even one bid from the room. Some guys behind me were laughing when the telephone bidders were fighting on the kard. I was thinking all these days if I have to write the name of the auction house. I decided not. Anyway it was a great lesson and I share this with you as such.

9th April 2006, 12:03 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi yannis, i too was at the auction (probably sitting near you :-) and know the piece you are talking about. but, what you must realise that the internet is just a small very part of arms collecting/dealing. when i viewed the sale there was an islamic dealer viewing the same pieces. a few days later, at auction, he sat on the other side of a friend of mine who knew him. just before that dagger came up, he whispered across that he was going to bid and i could see it marked in his catalogue. i told him it was a fake and he was surprised. he urgently asked if i was sure and i said i was, which left enough doubt for him to leave his paddle down. he bought a few pieces in that sale and i know that he doesnt deal in arms. his main thing is islamic art and his clientel is completely unrelated to the collectors on this forum. in fact, the islamic art world is almost completely unrelated to the islamic arms world, in that they have thier own dealers, their own buyers and their own price structure (2-3 times that of arms). i have no doubt that he would have bought it, and i also have no doubt that he could have sold it for a profit. he examined the piece closely, and still couldnt see that it was obviously wrong. when i went into the auction house, i saw a japanese dealer of strong standing and knowledge that knows my intrest, and he asked if i had seen that fabulous dagger. he hadnt examined it of course, but was fully aware of the one it was modelled on that has been published. so, i feel there was no danger of anyone on this forum buying it. the price as too high (even in estimate) for anyone who knows what they are doing to bid blind. also, the telephone bid and absentee bids were not necessarily done by those that hadnt viewed the sale. stuttgart fair was on at the same time and many people viewed the sale, the left bids and went abroad. all said, i too was shocked at its price. also, there was a shamshir in the sale with modern hilt and mounts. the auction house omitted dating both pieces, so they were well covered. i think the advice should be to never buy without examining first, but if everyone adhered to that, they ebay would be out of business. maybe the advice should be to know the market well before you spend 1000s. that particular piece has been circulating in small numbers over the last few years. as you say, it looked great in the photos and the description was 'glossed' over.

9th April 2006, 12:13 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	When buying online only bid what you are prepared to loose, this should also stop you paying too much for things that are actually okay.

10th April 2006, 02:14 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,657	Buying fakes is allways hard to digest. Maybe not so hard in the internet circuit, when one ends up betrayed by the poor and or ilusive pictures shown, or and by the shrewdness applied in the article description, by the seller. The amount of money at stacke also agrevates the pain, i think. Last christmas i offered me a gift, a cased pair of percussion pistols, from a local sort of antiquary shop. As i don't fancy the guy, i had my daughter to make the buying procedure... after i had a quick view through the ( shaded ) window where they were exposed, and felt excited with their aspect ... which was my great error. Getting home i opened the pack, and the pistols were a fake. My real christmas gift was my daughter getting immediately back to the shop and, without much struggle, bringing the cheque back ... one for 1500 euros ( 1800 dollars ). If the money was irrecuperable, i would stand for a good place in a pole for naiveté. fernando

10th April 2006, 05:33 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	We have all been here, one way or another. Sometimes several times .

10th April 2006, 05:51 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	fernando, i think we have all been caught out at some point. the nature of learning and collecting i suppose. you did well to send in the cavalry (your daughter) yannis, i wonder if it was me sitting behind you. i was laughing with a friend during that lot, but maybe the whole room was as well!

10th April 2006, 09:37 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Good call not naming the auction house.