Indian Arab Influenced Jambiya and Lots of Questions

[TVV]

This jambiya arrived today and I have not even cleaned it yet. The whole thing looks like it is going to be a project, and I have a lot of questions that hopefully you can help me with:
1. I believe this jambiya is Indian, made under heavy Arab influence, potentially for an Arab merchant living on India's West coast. Is this correct?
2. I believe the fittings are brass. Can brass suffer from bronze disease? If you look at the second picture, there appears to be damage to the middle section of the grip, where part of the waist looks like it has corroded.
3. If this is bronze disease, does anyone know a simple treatment? Now keep in mind, I am not a chemist. I read about bronze disease treatment with distilled water, which I am willing to try, as it seems easy and harmless enough.

I think these are my main questions for now. Many thanks to everyone in advance,
Teodor

[kahnjar1]

Hi TVV,
You might search and have a look at post titled "Jambiya for comment help needed" by Atlantia, posted in June last. A similar Indian Jambiya. There is also another post following this one, dealing with the restored item.
Regards Stuart

[ALEX]

Teodor, I agree - it is Indian. If the handle is cast, it could be a casting defect, and not a "disease".

[TVV]

Thank you for the responses!

Stu,
I am aware of the threads on Gene's jambiya. I can only dream of matching his restoration skills. There are some other examples in Elgood and in the Oriental Arms Sold section. However, I am always interested and happy to receive the opinion of this forum's knowledgeable members.

Alex,
The hilt is most certainly cast and I was wondering the same - if it is just a casting flaw rather than subsequent damage. I guess for now I should just monitor it and if it stays stable, then I will know it is a casting defect.

Regards,
Teodor

[Atlantia]

Hi Teodor,

Firstly let me say what a beautiful dagger you've got! Many congratualtions there on such a lucky find.

Bronze/Brass? Often very difficult to distinguish as both are copper alloys. From looking at your dagger, you have a mixture of copper alloys used in the hilt/scabbard. If you look at the end scabbard mount (Chape?) the lion (?) head looks rather gold and 'brassy' and seems to be cast then brazed to the chape which looks to have been made from sheets of a mostly copper metal which has been hammered and pierced.
The obvious differences made me wonder if (like mine) you dagger was once gilded or plated, but I cant see any traces even in the recesses?
The handle as Alex noted looks cast, possibly the fine detail added (chiseled in afterwards).
It would be unusual for bronze-rot/bronze disease to be active enough on a piece of this age to be leaving a hole, so I would think as Aex said that its much more likely a casting defect/blow hole.
If you look very closely at the 'damage' and can see a powdery verdigris coloured resudue over corrosion pitting then I guess it could be something sinister, but I'd doubt it.

Right! Backa gain.
I do like the choice of decoration, foliage and animals! Especially the rather monstrous lionhead!
Here is a rather nice heavy bronze tray of similar artistry:

[TVV]

Thank you Gene,

Nice tray, where the decoration is similar, but of higher workmanship than the one on my jambiya, where it is a little rougher.

I will make a better picture of the area in question tonight. I think I see some residue there, which might be from corrosion, or it might be left over from polishing paste.

Best regards,
Teodor

[TVV]

Here is a close-up of the damaged area (assuming it is damaged and not a casting flow). There is a residue there, as can be clearly seen, and not just there actually, but over the entire hilt. Is it the dreaded "disease", or is it just residue from polishing paste?

[spiral]

Nice jambiya, When I was about 20 I worked in a foundry for 9 months & would say its just a casting flaw, either from a air bubble or piece of loose sand in the mould.

Spiral

[Atlantia]

Its a lovely hilt, I also don't think we are seeing rot here, just casting flaws. Possibly exposed when the finishing detail was cut into it after casting.
Casting flaws are very common, as Spiral says, bubbles, sand grains, even impurities in the alloy etc.
Often the maker will re-fill these then reinstate the detail, and sometimes the 'plugs' come loose over time.

[TVV]

Thank you guys, as my knowledge of alloys and casting is low to non-existant, I was really worried there. Your posts were exactly what I wanted to read - I feel much relieved now.
Teodor

[Atlantia]

If you want to , try a little WD-40 and a toothbrush on the handle (not the scabbard). It'll darken the recesses remove the dust etc.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Teodor,

It seems as if the hilt and the head at the lower mount are of the same metal, but the upper and lower mounts are made of copper – is it so?

Like several others have mentioned it is indeed Indian – and very much so. It’s a nice piece congratulations.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Teodor,

It seems as if the hilt and the head at the lower mount are of the same metal, but the upper and lower mounts are made of copper – is it so?

Like several others have mentioned it is indeed Indian – and very much so. It’s a nice piece congratulations.

Jens,
The color of the hilt and the head at the chape is different from the color of the rest of the scabbard fittings. If I had to make a guess, I would say that the scabbard mounts are copper, while the hilt and the head are cast of brass.
What would be your guess on which part of India these originate from - Kutch?

Thank you,
Teodor

[Jens Nordlunde]

Teodor,
Yes, Kutch would, to my opinion, be a very qualified guess. But the mix of the two different metals, like on your dagger is still a bit strange.
Jens

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Teodor,
Yes, Kutch would, to my opinion, be a very qualified guess. But the mix of the two different metals, like on your dagger is still a bit strange.
Jens

Couple of thoughts there....

For casting the more 'brassy' bronze of the hilt and lion head would be tougher and hold sharper detail, while the alloy used in the mounts with a higher copper content would be easier to work/hammer.

Or, were the mounts all originally gilded?

[TVV]

Looking carefully at the copper fittings on the scabbard, it does seem that they were once gilded - there are still traces. However, I do not see any traces of gilding on the hilt or on the head at the end of the scabbard. Perhaps when the copper was gilded, it matched the color of the hilt well enough, so no gilding of the brass parts was deemed necessary.
Regards,
Teodor

[Jens Nordlunde]

Are you sure they were gilded and not silvered?

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Are you sure they were gilded and not silvered?

Yes - I only see traces of gilding, but no traces of silvering anywhere.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Teodor, have a look at the mounts on this scabbard, and notice especially the edges. These mounts have rests of silver, and the scabbard is from a bhuj.
I don't think there is much doubt that your hilt and the head on the scabbard have been cast, but it is a rare combination using bronze and copper.
Here is another bhuj scabbard.

[TVV]

Thank you Jens,
The mountings on the bhuj scabbard are very similar in style to those on my jambiya. However, while I can see the remnants of silvering on your example, the copper fittings on mine have definitely been gilded, not silvered. I am attaching some close-ups, which I hope illustrate this.
Why the artisan on mine chose to combine different materials in the hilt and scabbard I am not qure about, but Gene's explanation makes sense - perhaps copper was chosen as it was easier to pierce and rigidity was not required for those parts, which had the backing of the wooden scabbard.
Best regards,
Teodor

[ALEX]

Here is a typical Bhuj silver-work example from the early to mid 19th Century - a non-weapon object/beaker. There are strong style similarities with Teodor's and Jens' scabbards.

I also appreciate Atlantia's references to non-arms objects in his effort to understand the relationships between workmanship of different regions. As evidenced by this thread - it is very helpful.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Alex,

Thank you for showing this decoration. This is a very good example of what I mean, as other object than weapons can show the same kind of decoration, but they are often better documented. This is a very good example – thank you.

Jens

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Alex,

Thank you for showing this decoration. This is a very good example of what I mean, as other object than weapons can show the same kind of decoration, but they are often better documented. This is a very good example – thank you.

Jens

Thank you, Jens
Based on your and Atlantia's comments, I decided to start a new thread: "Comparison of decorations on arms and non-arms objects". Hopefully we'll have other examples and references for comparing.