Kebo Lajer with Kul buntet - opinions?

erikscollectables · 19th June 2009, 07:59 PM

A friend om mine recently acquired a keris that is very very nice in my opinion.

With what I have learned here and in my books my guess is that this is a very old keris with dapur Kebo Lajer and maybe a Kul Buntet?

It came in a very nice wrangka iras.

Would like to hear your determination of this keris as mine probably is incorrect and/or incomplete.

Any ideas on tanguh would be welcome too.

Regards, Erik

kai · 26th June 2009, 01:21 AM

Hello Erik,

I also like the scabbard a lot.

Any pics of the other side as well as of the whole blade?

Regards,
Kai

erikscollectables · 28th June 2009, 04:59 PM

Here is another photo of the keris.
I saw it yesterday in real life and in my opinion it is a remarkable piece!
The scabbard is really really beautiful.
I think it is very old but kept very well and polished superbly.

The kul buntet part has small pieces of gold in it that seem to be part of the forging of the keris....

Regards, Erik

Sajen · 28th June 2009, 05:10 PM

Hello Erik,

a very nice keris indeed. That the gold pieces a part of the foring process I can't believe really, think about the forging temperature.

sajen

David · 28th June 2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Erik,

a very nice keris indeed. That the gold pieces a part of the foring process I can't believe really, think about the forging temperature.

sajen

I would have to agree there. The gold was probably added after forging. Nice blade and sheath. I happen to like kebo keris very much and have a few of them. I also have a couple with pamor kul buntet which seems to occur with some regularity with this dhapur.
I would say that if the sheath is old it is not that it has been well kept, but rather that it has been re-finished.

erikscollectables · 28th June 2009, 07:28 PM

Well I can imagine the gold melt away during the actual forging.
On the other hand the gold specs do not look like they have been added afterwards. No idea how this works.

Regards, Erik

Jonno · 14th July 2009, 11:29 AM

Can anyone tell me the meaning of the small gold dots in lower part?

Best regards,
John

ganjawulung · 14th July 2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I would say that if the sheath is old it is not that it has been well kept, but rather that it has been re-finished.

The same opinion with you, David. But at least, the warangka's wood is of good "trembalo" wood, with good chatoyancy too in gandar part...

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 14th July 2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Well I can imagine the gold melt away during the actual forging.
On the other hand the gold specs do not look like they have been added afterwards. No idea how this works.

Regards, Erik

Hello Erik,

one reason why there are golden spots at the blade may be that this keris have had gold somewhere originally.
I have a Sumatra keris which have had a gold covering in up from the ganja and also in the front from ganja and at the gandik. When I get this keris the blade also have had some gold spots at the blade. After a warangan you can see only a small piece of gold between ganja and blade in the gandik part. This gold spots maybe have been there from opened gold film and abrasive wear from extraction the blade from sheat. I try to take a picture from this.

sajen

David · 14th July 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonno

Can anyone tell me the meaning of the small gold dots in lower part?

Best regards,
John

Welcome to the forum John. I think Sajen is probably correct. The gold dots probably do not have any meaning on their own, they are probably just residual of gold work that was once on the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 14th July 2009, 11:52 PM

Erik, I have a few questions about these gold specks:-

1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold?

2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality)

3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade?

4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ?

5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade?

6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?)

7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago?

The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.If a conscientious examination were to be carried out some plausible explanation for these specks may be able to be proposed, but in the absence of such examination all we can do is guess.

David · 15th July 2009, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.

This occurred to me, but i couldn't think how else it might appear in this form. And you are certainly right that this dhapur is rarely gets kinatah. Can't say i have ever seen it.

A. G. Maisey · 15th July 2009, 04:42 AM

I spent a long time looking at that area with the specks, David, and it seems to me as if something has dragged across it.

The first thing that must be established is if it is gold or not.

Jonno · 15th July 2009, 03:30 PM

Hi, My name is John, I am new on this forum.

The keris in question is mine. Erik has put it on this forum to collect some information about it.

Thanking you all for your time and inforanswers.

Hi Maisey,

1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold?

I didn’t test it, but it looks like gold foil.

2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality)

3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade?

No, only the lower parts. Not higher than gandik.

4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ?

No, on one side.

5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade?

I can see the gold on the blade, not in or between.
Looks like thin foil

6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?)

The Keris has came directly from Indonesia

7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago?

Atleast more then 30 years ago, that’s what they told me. It is a fine item and it came from a reliable source.

I also think something has dragged across it....
Best regards,
John

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 12:17 AM

Good to see you here John, and thank you for providing a response to my questions.

This keris has been in a western society for 30 years; during that time anything could have been done to it.We probably should stop speculation on these assumed gold specks. In my opinion their presence on this blade have absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely associated with the cultural roots of this keris.

We have some unidentified yellow specks that appear to be residue from abrasion.

That's all we have. Nothing more.

Forget the specks and focus on the keris, which is as nice an example of this type as I have seen.

John, you may have noticed that my registered name is A.G.Maisey.

The "A.G." are initials of my given names.

You may address me as "Alan", but you may not address me as "Maisey", unless we attended high school together, or we both belong to the same club. If you are uncomfortable with "Alan", you may use "Mr. Maisey".

Jonno · 16th July 2009, 11:08 AM

Hello Alan,

Thank you for your response
An other member has already corrected me. Because I'm a new member I wasn't able to edit my last post on the forum. But they have upgraded my status.

Best regards,
John

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 01:32 PM

No problem John, crossing cultures can sometimes be a learning experience.

19th June 2009, 07:59 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Kebo Lajer with Kul buntet - opinions? A friend om mine recently acquired a keris that is very very nice in my opinion. With what I have learned here and in my books my guess is that this is a very old keris with dapur Kebo Lajer and maybe a Kul Buntet? It came in a very nice wrangka iras. Would like to hear your determination of this keris as mine probably is incorrect and/or incomplete. Any ideas on tanguh would be welcome too. Regards, Erik Attached Images

28th June 2009, 04:59 PM	#3
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	another photo Here is another photo of the keris. I saw it yesterday in real life and in my opinion it is a remarkable piece! The scabbard is really really beautiful. I think it is very old but kept very well and polished superbly. The kul buntet part has small pieces of gold in it that seem to be part of the forging of the keris.... Regards, Erik Attached Images

26th June 2009, 01:21 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,236	Hello Erik, I also like the scabbard a lot. Any pics of the other side as well as of the whole blade? Regards, Kai

28th June 2009, 05:10 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,608	Hello Erik, a very nice keris indeed. That the gold pieces a part of the foring process I can't believe really, think about the forging temperature. sajen

28th June 2009, 07:28 PM	#6
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Well I can imagine the gold melt away during the actual forging. On the other hand the gold specs do not look like they have been added afterwards. No idea how this works. Regards, Erik

14th July 2009, 11:29 AM	#7
Jonno Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 51	Can anyone tell me the meaning of the small gold dots in lower part? Best regards, John

14th July 2009, 11:52 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,762	Erik, I have a few questions about these gold specks:- 1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold? 2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality) 3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade? 4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ? 5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade? 6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?) 7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago? The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.If a conscientious examination were to be carried out some plausible explanation for these specks may be able to be proposed, but in the absence of such examination all we can do is guess.

15th July 2009, 04:42 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,762	I spent a long time looking at that area with the specks, David, and it seems to me as if something has dragged across it. The first thing that must be established is if it is gold or not.

15th July 2009, 03:30 PM	#14
Jonno Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 51	Hi, My name is John, I am new on this forum. The keris in question is mine. Erik has put it on this forum to collect some information about it. Thanking you all for your time and inforanswers. Hi Maisey, 1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold? I didn’t test it, but it looks like gold foil. 2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality) 3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade? No, only the lower parts. Not higher than gandik. 4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ? No, on one side. 5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade? I can see the gold on the blade, not in or between. Looks like thin foil 6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?) The Keris has came directly from Indonesia 7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago? Atleast more then 30 years ago, that’s what they told me. It is a fine item and it came from a reliable source. I also think something has dragged across it.... Best regards, John

16th July 2009, 12:17 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,762	Good to see you here John, and thank you for providing a response to my questions. This keris has been in a western society for 30 years; during that time anything could have been done to it.We probably should stop speculation on these assumed gold specks. In my opinion their presence on this blade have absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely associated with the cultural roots of this keris. We have some unidentified yellow specks that appear to be residue from abrasion. That's all we have. Nothing more. Forget the specks and focus on the keris, which is as nice an example of this type as I have seen. John, you may have noticed that my registered name is A.G.Maisey. The "A.G." are initials of my given names. You may address me as "Alan", but you may not address me as "Maisey", unless we attended high school together, or we both belong to the same club. If you are uncomfortable with "Alan", you may use "Mr. Maisey".

16th July 2009, 11:08 AM	#16
Jonno Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 51	Hello Alan, Thank you for your response An other member has already corrected me. Because I'm a new member I wasn't able to edit my last post on the forum. But they have upgraded my status. Best regards, John

16th July 2009, 01:32 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,762	No problem John, crossing cultures can sometimes be a learning experience.