Info on Old Military kukri

[Andy Stevens]

Hello all
This little gem fell into my hands over the weekend. Can someone tell me its age and place of origin. I have looked on other web sites but as yet have not found an exact match. The blade is 13inch long, the handle is 4inches in length and is finnished with a dome cap. The mark on the blade looks like a stylelised deer head or similar. The scabbard is interesting in having a large tinder pouch. The brass scabbard tip is marked with what looks like I&M (samemark is stamped on the tinder pouch ). Both small knifes are missing. Thanks in advance.

[Battara]

From what I understand, the steel bolster points to a pre-1900 piece, along with the easy slope of the blade.

[spiral]

HI Andy,

The scabbard is fairly rare & probably early ww1 & may be marked & dated at the top of the pouch under the flap.

It was made for thr mk.1 issue kukri.

It is official British Gurkha issue.{& Garhwallis, Kuamon, Assam, & Burma units etc. of course.}

The kukri is not any regular military pattern. So it wont truly be identifiable.

Steel bolsters are still made & have been throughout the 20th century.

Brass bolsters are probably post 1910.

But steel is still currant, & a sign that more time was taken making the kukri than brass ones.

That particular shape doesnt date the kukri. But as a pure speculation it could be ww1 or 1920s era.

It may have been taken into ww1 but it was not an issued pattern kukri.

If you ever want to sell the scabbard or trade it, give me a shout.

Spiral

P.S.
I can normaly be found at IKRHS Forum or on Tora Forum.

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Spiral,

I am a little confused about brass or steel bolsters. Are you saying that brass bolsters are post 1910 on military issue kukri only, which might well be true, surely you are not making this statement about the kukri in general. Where do you get such definite knowledege. Tim

[spiral]

Hello Tim,

Years of reserch & study. Its my hobby!

The earliest brass bolster the Gurkha museam has ever come across was picked up in 1915 & obviously hadnt been around that long at that date.

There are also non earlier than that in the Kathamando national museam.

Non of the worlds leading collectors have come across a provenaced one pre.1910

Occasionaly dealers & collectors wish to belive ther kukri are all rather older than seems likely.

But most of us who have truly studied them have separetly come to the same conclusian.

I also have yet to see any unprovenced brass kukri that appears likely to me to pre.date 1910. Based on its design features. {I have bought just on 400 over the years, & handled thousands in both in England & Nepal.}

So thats why I state,"Brass bolsters are probably post 1910."

Why are you surprised or confused about this statement? Do you know of an older one? If so would love to hear of it.

I stated probably because one day one may turn up.

But thats the extent of factual knowledge within the kukri collecting community to date.

If one does turn up it will be an exception to the rule.

The main Military issue pattern kukris didnt have brass bolsters till after ww2. {Although occasionaly some private purchase kukri carried by officers & other ranks did.}

Hope that clarifys the "brass bolster" issue for you.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

I still question your assumptions, especially that more care was taken in the manufacture of steel bolster kukri. If you look at the so called thumb spike on Andys you can see that it is rather crude. It would be very helpful is you could post other examples. I am most interested as I live only 2 miles from the old Queen Elizabeth barracks in Church Crookham were untill 2? years ago the Gurkha's were stationed and my town has had a long association with the Gurkha's. I have a Kukri with a brass bolster which is rather fine and said to be very old by Gurkha's themselves not that means a lot. I feel you need to illustrate your statements with more verifiable information before they can be taken as the sum of accrued knowledge. Tim

[spiral]

OK Tim, first off , I suggest you reread what I actualy wrote, & not imagine the assumptions you say I have made!

I didnt make them.

They are your assumptions not mine.

But of course the interpritations of written word can be tricky as we all know.

I am sorry that the clarity I though I used, was obviously missing.

I said steel bolsters took longer to make. {"a sign that more time was taken making the kukri than brass ones."} That is pure fact.

Brass is softer & easiyer to work. Thats why most modern kukri have brass bolsters.

If you go to Dharan & watch them making them & ask the kami thier opinion, It is a straight forward open & shut case.

I didnt say they took more care, steel or brass bolsters come in all quality. From tourist scrap to top quality pieces.

I gave sources of verifiable information including 2 museams. Go to Winchester & veiw there collection & speak to the curator.

I wont suggest you fly to Nepal, to thier National museam , even though thats what I did to satisfy my curiosity about this questian & others.


A gurkhas opinion of the age of a kukri is generaly worthless unfortuantly.
They are mainly boys from the hills with very littkle knowledge of thie own history even. There are of course occasional exceptions.

They make good soldiers though.

Whether you wish to accept what I say is up to you.

But I spoke of facts, & also stated my opinions, which are derived from those facts.

I cant realy give photos to illustrate that steel bolsters are better than brass, because I never said that.

I have some very high quality brass bolstered pieces.

Pictures of your kukri would be interesting & I will tell you as much as I can about dating it if I can.

I am glad you like your kukri.

I like mine as well.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

I do beg your pardon, you did not say care, but in manufacture time can be equated to care. I am sure you must of amassed much knowledge, what with trips to Nepal. Even your Nepal museum experience is still not what I would call enough knowledge to pass judgement on the methods used by the countless workshops there must have been and probably still are, not just in Nepal but Northern India and as discussed in the past Indian areas far away from Nepal. I find it a little sweeping. I will post a picture of my Kukri for your opinion. Thanks Tim

[Ian]

This is a fascinating thread and discussion. I'm interested to see the examples from Tim and spiral. Let's stick to the kukhris guys.

Ian.

[spiral]

Thankyou Ian, Its a subject I warm too.

I agree Tim, time can equal care in manufacture & see why you took that deduction.

But high carbon steel does take longer to work than brass, that is a pure fact of physics.

Any metalergists{?} here I am sure could explain it in great detail.

Thier are also some poor quality steel bolstered pieces. So sometimes other varibles seem to be playing thier part. {supply of materials, tradition,meeting the customers demands etc.}

Theres far more about the history of kukri I dont know than that I do.

I become more aware of that all the time. Many questians I will never know the answear to. But thats part of the beuty of them & why I enjoy finding & reserching about them as much as possible.

But I havent even been to Dehra dun!

But I still do ok .

Sorry if my statements sounded sweeping, I tried to be as factual & concise as I could to advoid confusian.

I Look forward to your photos, could you give the length , weight spec, & point of balance distance in front of bolster, as well please?

Thankyou
Spiral

[inveterate]

Spiral, whilst you mention a museum having a brass bolstered Khukuri dating around 1915 I personally have come to the conclusion that this Khukuri will be an exception a more general rule would say brass bolstered Khukuri are post 1920 , I have yet to see a provenanced Khukuri with a brass bolster made prior to that time nor has (I believe) any other dedicated Khukuri collectors. Thanks all interesting post. Rod

[spiral]

I tottally agree Rod,

But They did exist in 1915 & probably back to 1910. So thats what I state as definate fact. {Which people seem to want.}

But sure most are post 1920, Thats the opinion most of us have come to accept I think? I think I may have even said the same to Mark & Andreas before?

I always wonder if the artilary shell cases from WW1 prompted the growth in the post war use of the brass bolster?

Spiral

[Battara]

Spiral that was helpful. I thought they stopped making steel bolsters by the turn of the century.

Oh well..

[spiral]

Thankyou! I am glad it was of use to you Battara.

All those fake military issue brass bolster kukri on ebay dated 1917 dont help either!

Heres a complete pair of rather nice officer quality crescent marked kukri with all brass fittings from my collection.

I would think probably early or mid 1920s.

But Definatly post 1910. & pre WW2.

For some reason pairs of kukri high quality kukri seem rather uncommon.

Spiral

[Rick]

I've got one of those .
Exactly the same except the horn handle is lighter brown and has white dots inlaid .

[Emanuel]

Hello, can the chirra on the blade serve as an indication of date or the user it was made for? I've noticed that many "Made in India" khukuri on ebay lack these depressions while traditional examples seem to have one or even three to lighten the blade. I imagine forging chirra into the blade would also take longer time...Would it perhaps be the difference between a user and a collector/presentation piece?
Manolo

[spiral]

Any photos Rick? Always nice to see another kukri!
Brass, steel or silver fittings?

Manolo, They dont realy help with dating, They can still do the broad fullers today.

Sometimes they forge them sometimes they grind them, often both.

This one is Dia Chirra.

It shows the kukri cost more to make, & was more likley to be an officers or senior NCOs piece. {Or Diplomat, or owner of Tea plantation etc.} or as you say a gift or perhaps presentation piece.

They were definatly carried into combat though. Thats well recorded.

I have seen pictures of inlisted men in Burma in ww2 carrying Dia chirras. {not quite such dressy versians though.}

Officers always bought there own kukri {certaly untill at least ww2.}, so often carried quite fancy ones, if that was to there taste.

Spiral

[Rick]

Hmmm , I thought I'd already posted a picture but a search fails to reveal it , so here :
I'd love to get a pair of knives and pouch for it and to have the scabbard re-covered (cut along the edge) .

[spiral]

Nice one Rick, Thanks!

These ones with inlay are rather attractive I think, is it possible to tell what the inlay is, or are the fragments to small for positive id?

It reminds me of one I saw about 4 years ago, that had been bought out of Singapore in the 1930s. It could even be the same one? Last time I saw it was on ebay heading to a well known American collector.

Most serious kukri collectors try & pick up one of these models. I was lucky to find this pair together & both obviosly made by the same hand.

You do get various qualitys of them, ranging from good to exceptional, I would say. As with most hand made kukri. Some dont like the brass so much,because of the dating but the other versians of them were still bieng made into the 1920s as well. So it makes no odds I think. Silver is always nice of course!

But A good kukri is a good kukri, afterall.


Although I Must admit I dont bother with many post 1950 ones.
Do you collect kukri? or is it just a "stray" you came across?

Spiral

[Rick]

Hi Spiral ,
I'm sort of a generalist in my collecting .
I like to have a decent example or two of any particular edged weapon I like .
This example came from Mark McMorrow IIRC .
The inserts could be either bone or ivory ; just not sure .

Do you know anywhere I could pick up the two missing knives and have the scabbard refurbished and a pouch made ?

[spiral]

Thats cool Rick! thats the one then!

Glad its gone to a good home! funny to see it again. Glad I still recognised it!

A Merchent Navy man bought it in Singapore in the 1930s.

I had it for a while.

It had to go to enable further purchases at the time.

No idea on the replacment scabbard, most new ones i see just dont look right. The originals had the leather shrunk onto them.

As for the small knives you can get rusty versians of Atlanta cutlerys Nepal hoard, but not the exact matching models, that go with these.

Sorry I cant help you on that one.

Most old kukri have losts there pockets & knives unfortuanatly.

Spiral

[Rick]

Ahh , funny how things go around .
What did you make out the inserts to be ; bone or ivory ; I lean toward bone .
Thanks for the bit of history !

[spiral]

I cant realy recal Rick, I have a slight thought that some seemed bone some ivory? But couldnt swear that was this piece.

Glad you like it, as I recal it had a great feel to it.

Spiral

[Rick]

Thanks Spiral .