Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st June 2020, 09:53 PM   #1
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 244
Default Great Qama

Hello, I am new in the forum
I'm from Germany and I collect antique edged weapons from Europe and Asia and letter openers.
In my first post I will show you my most beautiful Qama. It has cutted and gold-backed deers and flowers on the blade which is made of wild damascus with a fuller of ribbon damascus. The gold-koftgari shows a floral dekor. I think this combination of different decorations is really rare and shows the high quality of the dagger.
The hilt is made of walrus, the scabbard is shagreen and both have iron mountings with a fine gold-koftgari.
Length overall: 50cm
Without scabbard: 47cm
Length of the blade: 34,5cm

I think this dagger was made in the early 19th century in northwest Persia.
Are you agree with that?
Attached Images
     
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2020, 09:28 PM   #2
OsobistGB
Member
 
OsobistGB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 94
Default

I agree with your opinion.The kindjal is definitely Persian.
OsobistGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2020, 10:08 PM   #3
russel
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 236
Default

Stunning!
russel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2020, 05:17 PM   #4
Oliver Pinchot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 457
Default

Definitely not Persian.
It's Georgian work c. 1850. There were a number of Tiflis masters who worked in this style. Very nice piece, congrats.
Oliver Pinchot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2020, 07:38 PM   #5
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 244
Default

Has anyone pictures of similar pieces here in the forum. I searched in the Internet and in my books and I found only one. This Qama was sold in an auction and later by a dealer (I dont know if it is allowed to send a link). But the blade of this one was in a worse condition, mountings and scabbard were newer than the dagger.
I add some more pictures of my Qama.
Greetings
Robin
Attached Images
      
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2020, 07:39 PM   #6
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 244
Default

More pictures...
Attached Images
     
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2020, 08:28 PM   #7
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,903
Default

Absolutely stunning! Congratulations!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2020, 11:02 AM   #8
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Agree with Oliver: Georgian, most likely Tiflis. May be even older: as per Rivkin, solid piece of walrus ivory and “ shoulders” on the handle were in fashion even in the first quarter of the 19 century.

Can you show the Damascus pattern on the flat surfaces of the blade and within the fullers? I would expect to see not “ ribbon Damascus” ( like on Turkish blades) there but the so-called “ Tiflis zigzag”, a very tight Damascus pattern with thin lines. It is frequently found on South Georgian kindjals from Guria.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2020, 03:07 PM   #9
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Here are examples of 2 Gurian kindjals with Tiflis Zigzag within the fullers.
Is yours similar?
Attached Images
    
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2020, 03:48 PM   #10
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 464
Default

Beautiful! Thank you for showing this. Made my day!

Interesting. I noticed a few things. I looks like the blades edges run in a parallel configuration narrowing gently after the midpoint rather than an overall triangular blade shape. Blade decoration on both sides. Hidden tang but riveted with decorative incerts. Thank you Ariel for the term "Shoulders", I will add that to my vocabulary. Nice detail on the carving and koftgari. I saw what appeared to be the incised grove around the decoration on the blade to keep the scratches from the koftgari contained and blend the carving with the overlay technique. Is the golden ground in the carved deer section gilding or koftgari? Also no duckheads surrounding the fullers. As for the scabbard, the final on the chape was very subdued. The koftgari patterns on the collar I thought were unusual. There is a cross hatched cup motif that ties in with the flower below the deer on the blade. I saw what appeared to be zoomorphic shapes, almost proto-duckheads near the throat. Peacocks or waterfowl? Are those oakleaves in the motif in the central section of the collar? Some of the vegetative sub-motifs are abstract to the point of almost being comas. A Circassian influence on the artist? I have always been struck by that pattern's similarity to bronze/iron age Celtic motifs. I couldn't make out much on the suspension ring. I would love to see a detail of the back of the blade.

I hope the form members forgive me for documenting my impressions. I always hope when I write to see other opinions expressed about a subject. What all this means for area of production and date with the experts weighing in all ready I would only show my ignorance to hazard a guess. One question; I am guessing that in this period of production the decoration was by an Armenian craftsman?

Ariel any more information on the tifis zigzag? I consulted the images in Miller and Rivkin but did not find a good example. There are some suspects in Miller but he did not seemed concerned in that kind of detail as he had so much other information he needed to convey.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2020, 03:57 PM   #11
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 464
Default

Thank you. I see. It looks close to what Hrisoulas would call a star or chevron made be twisting laminated bars in deferent directions and welding. I wonder if the core of this type of blade was different than the edges or was the pattern enhanced by removal of material?
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2020, 05:50 PM   #12
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 244
Default

Hello,
unfortunately I can't answere immediately, because the moderation checks the contributions of new members at first (because of spambots or sth. like that),so there is some delay...
I hope the new pictures are helpful.
No, the fuller is ribbon damascus and not torsion or turkish damascus. I think it's persian because of the decor. I have seen much other Qamas with a fuller with a damascus structure, but the most pieces had a completely different decor and only one had a cutted picture on the blade. Because of that Im not sure that my dagger is from the same region like for example ariels Qama.
Regards
Robin
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2020, 07:06 PM   #13
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Re. Armenian armorers.
The majority of them worked as jewelers, Papov being the ultimate example. Blades were mainly produced by Daghestani and Tiflis masters and sold to workshops.
There are some clearly Armenian blades with Armenian inscriptions, but they are often over-embellished with almost kitschy inlays and koft decorations and personally I do not like them. Pure IMHO.
Exceptions: we do not know for certain whether Eliarov was Georgian or Armenian or whether Purunsuzov or Master Khachatur made their own blades. They worked relatively early in the 19 century, and most of the splendid kindjals and shashkas available to us date much later, when the entire field was captured by large and medium sized workshops mass producing generic products with rather faceless appearance . The role of bladed weapons in warfare plummeted at that time and they became part of a wardrobe, status symbols and souvenirs.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2020, 07:28 PM   #14
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

By the way, Rivkin mentioned the similarity of the “Tiflis zigzag” with some Indian mechanical damascus patterns and noted the presence of Indian merchants and armorers in Tiflis.
Surprisingly, one can find Indian blades on Caucasian swords. Trade connections may be the reason, but Georgian mercenaries ( often of the highest rank!) served in Persian armies since Shah Abbas I times and went to Afghanistan and India. Globalization was not invented yesterday:-)
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2020, 02:49 AM   #15
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
Post

Welcome to the forum!

With Ariel's examples, the fullers clearly exhibit twistcore. I doubt that there is any difference in basic construction between Tiflis zigzag, Turkish ribbon, stars, what-have-you: made from twisted bars and differences in appearance result from obvious forging details as well as how much material is removed from the surface of the twisted rod. A rose is still a rose...

BTW, twistcore is a widespread technique known pretty much all over the place; no need to invoke any specific connection with India.

I'm less convinced that the fullers of the blade in the first post show twistcore - to me it looks more like pattern-welding with some surface manipulation from the limited pics. We need close-ups for getting a better grasp on its construction!

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2020, 05:39 AM   #16
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Kai,
You hit the nail on the head: every variety of mechanical Damascus is a product of mixing/ twisting chunks of steel with different carbon content. Suffice it to take a book by Manfred Sachse and look at the endless combinations and perturbations of “ hard” and “soft” iron to realize that they all, without exception, are in fact “ twistcore”. But devil is in the details: different masters in different cultures had their favorite schemes of twisting to produce their favorite final pattern. Not for nothing contemporary Indian artisans manufacture blades with the “ bird eye” pattern: simple , quick and flashy. Turks twisted their rods creating “ Turkish ribbon”, old Vikings braided them, but Tibetans just bent their rods on themselves for their unsophisticated “ hairpin “ pattern.
It’s like music: every composer from Bach to ABBA had same do-re-mis, but arranged them differently.
This is why we can look at the Damascus pattern and guess where it came from, and why pattern A and pattern N have a lot in common implying a connection between the traditions.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2020, 09:14 AM   #17
OsobistGB
Member
 
OsobistGB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 94
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Definitely not Persian.
It's Georgian work c. 1850. There were a number of Tiflis masters who worked in this style. Very nice piece, congrats.
You may be right that it was probably manufactured in Tiflis.After consulting an expert , I will add that it was made between 1830-1840 in Tiflis , but the Persian influence is obvious!That was the reason to knee-jerk react with its identification.So let us not miss the fact that Eastern Georgia was part of Persia.
It's definitely a classy kindjal!
OsobistGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2020, 03:33 PM   #18
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 464
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Kai,
You hit the nail on the head: every variety of mechanical Damascus is a product of mixing/ twisting chunks of steel with different carbon content. Suffice it to take a book by Manfred Sachse and look at the endless combinations and perturbations of “ hard” and “soft” iron to realize that they all, without exception, are in fact “ twistcore”. But devil is in the details: different masters in different cultures had their favorite schemes of twisting to produce their favorite final pattern. Not for nothing contemporary Indian artisans manufacture blades with the “ bird eye” pattern: simple , quick and flashy. Turks twisted their rods creating “ Turkish ribbon”, old Vikings braided them, but Tibetans just bent their rods on themselves for their unsophisticated “ hairpin “ pattern.
It’s like music: every composer from Bach to ABBA had same do-re-mis, but arranged them differently.
This is why we can look at the Damascus pattern and guess where it came from, and why pattern A and pattern N have a lot in common implying a connection between the traditions.

Not an easy book to find in English. Cheap in German though.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2020, 06:01 PM   #19
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

OsobistGB:

“but the Persian influence is obvious!”

———————————-

Can you elaborate what particular features you view as specifically and obviously Persian?
Thanks.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2020, 06:51 PM   #20
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,903
Default

Interesting that the moment I saw it, I also thought that is Persian.

Why?

Simply because it looked so much alike others I saw in Persian museums.

The size, the shape of the hilt and also the chiseled decoration on the blade looked very Persian to me.

PS: Yet, the fullers do not look very Persian...

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 28th June 2020 at 12:19 AM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2020, 09:21 PM   #21
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
OsobistGB:

“but the Persian influence is obvious!”

———————————-

Can you elaborate what particular features you view as specifically and obviously Persian?
Thanks.
Ariel,

Standing on the outside looking in, perhaps the gazelle

Gavin
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2020, 02:54 AM   #22
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent
Ariel,

Standing on the outside looking in, perhaps the gazelle

Gavin
My point is that I cannot find anything that would not be compatible with a 100% Georgian origin.
Can somebody point it out to me?
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2020, 05:36 AM   #23
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,620
Default

At this point I do not think anyone is disputing the Georgian attribution. It is important to know where the arms we discuss originate from, but it is equally important to try to avoid going down a rabbit hole and shift the focus away from what is a very high quality, high level of craftsmanship kindjal.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2020, 09:46 AM   #24
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 244
Default

Hello,

furher pictures are above now, because of the forum rules for new members all my posts be inspected before they appear. It seems that this process needs a bit time.
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2020, 06:22 PM   #25
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 464
Default Just talking out my butt again, what else is the internet for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzoadler
Hello,
unfortunately I can't answere immediately, because the moderation checks the contributions of new members at first (because of spambots or sth. like that),so there is some delay...
I hope the new pictures are helpful.
No, the fuller is ribbon damascus and not torsion or turkish damascus. I think it's persian because of the decor. I have seen much other Qamas with a fuller with a damascus structure, but the most pieces had a completely different decor and only one had a cutted picture on the blade. Because of that Im not sure that my dagger is from the same region like for example ariels Qama.
Regards
Robin
Robin, welcome. Sorry sidetracking things with the talk of twist patterns, in the Gurian examples that could be completely unfounded. I took another look at Ariels examples and the white almost straight line each fuller. Could it be welded rods with a birds eye (zig zag) on the weld? I then took another look at your kindjal, the post's subject, and decided to upload Rivkin's descriptions. Rivkin defines the Zigzag as a very fine birds eye that protrudes perpendicular to the blade. Common on beaked sabers. I uploaded a detail of a beaked saber from the same book, "Arms and Armor of the Caucasus." It is more similar to your pattern without the appearance of strait white lines in the pattern than the Gurinan kindjals have. My understanding of a birds eye is that it is a surface manipulation technique, not a twisted rod. That said the elongated "eyes" could be a ladder pattern as well, but why doubt the gold standard of modern scholarship? As long as I'm waxing philosophic may I suggest that yours and the beaked saber detail shown both have an ornate core that seems to have little to do with the rest of the blade suggesting a core of at least different construction if not different materials. Although your appearance could be from stock removal in the fullers as I have seen this type of fuller described as cut and references to them being retro fitted on existing blades. Or both could be from a master using precise surface manipulation during the forging process. Either way production by a savant.

Now for the big disclaimer of my theories in that Ariel I am sure has knowledge outside the text mentioned and can give clarification. It is nice to see the second Gurian example at a different angle and magnification. I had not seen it clearly before to be able to make out the amazing patterns in the fullers.

PS. Robin notice the similarity in style in the Georgian made beaked saber's cartouche and the incised line around the koftgari, especially on the back, of your blade.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by Interested Party; 28th June 2020 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Epiphany
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2020, 07:39 PM   #26
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,219
Default

One of the best Georgian blades I have ever seen! Thanks for posting!
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2020, 08:07 PM   #27
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 244
Default

Hello,
I have thought about ariels and Oliver Pinchots opinion that the dagger could be made in Daghestan or Tiflis. I found this map in the internet (see also the link) and if the dagger has been made at the early 19th century these areas were a part of Persia at this time.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadsch...an_1900-en.png

In this case it is not wrong to say "it's (northwest) persian", but it is also right to say "it's from Tiflis or Daghestan"
That would explain the persian decor and the similarity of the blade to georgian examples. Maybe the decor was made by another artist than the blade.
But I think the customer was a Persian who maybe lived more in the south.
Attached Images
 
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2020, 08:25 PM   #28
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 244
Default

If it is allowed, here are the links of the only dagger I found which looks very similar to mine. I think the mountings are newer than the dagger and the blade was cleaned very extensively

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...kindjal-dagger

https://armsandantiques.com/products...us-blade-rd779

Regards
Robin
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 03:38 PM   #29
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 464
Default

I don't think anyone is questioning Persian influence. Just in the current belief system Tiflis seems a reasonable attribution. I would love to see a book on Persian and Turkish blades of this type. Possibly world view and scholarship related to Persian Qamas would have been different if the 1979 revolution had not prevented the exchange of ideas in the region. Hopefully 30 years from now everyone will play nice and scholarship with flow across borders again.

The blade geometries are very different on these linked examples. Yours is what I had associated with earlier blades and a different technique of use. They are all gorgeous and I would be honored to own any of them. I liked the pomegranate on the sheath of the 2nd linked example, but I believe the sheaths don't help you argument. The style of the pomegranate I thought was associated with later Russian influence on the genre. The first linked sheath seems very solidly in the Kubatji/Dagestani tradition from the late nineteenth century. The second example's blade if I remember correctly had traces of duckheads on the koft a very Tiflis touch. All that said blades moved around the region, sometimes waiting many years to be mounted or were mounted successively for different owners. Often works were an amalgamation of several craftsmen often from different regions and traditions or people working outside their cultural traditions. So really the sky is the limit concerning the truth of production and the critic imposes their own bias upon what they see.... The knife being made for an Iranian, expat or otherwise, is as likely as anything else. Thankyou again for showing your collection and giving me the chance to play this game of attribution.

Attached are two plates from Rivkin's Caucasian Arms. That to me seem to be a similar style. though honestly I like yours better. Personal taste.

BTW did anyone else notice the first auction house had the blade backwards in its sheath. One of my pet peeves. It makes things sloppy and leads to dull blades.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Interested Party; 30th June 2020 at 03:54 PM.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 05:59 PM   #30
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party

I don't think anyone is questioning Persian influence. Just in the current belief system Tiflis seems a reasonable attribution.
I do. And the map looks quite deceiving.

Persians tried to absorb Eastern Georgia for centuries, and invaded it repeatedly, sometimes being victorious, sometimes beaten. But they never made it a part of Persian Empire: Georgians were fiercely independent and their Christian faith resisted Moslem rule.

Persian military and political influence of Caucasus and Transcaucasia ended in 1801 by the entrance of Russia as a player, when it officially made Georgia as part of the Russian Empire. Persians tried to offer a feeble fight, but were beaten mercilessly and in 1813 they officially ceded any claims on Eastern Georgia and the entire Daghestan ( Golestan treaty). Thus, by the time this kindjal was created there was not a trace of Persian military or political influence or presence in that area ( see map).

Artistic, -yes, because art has no borders. But I have gone over Khorasani's book showing multiple examples of kindjals and sabers from major Iranian museums and there is nothing even remotely similar. On the other hand, there are multiple examples of similar decorative motives on Georgian weapons from that era. Moreover, the "almost wild damascus" of the flat parts of the blade and " Tiflis Zigzag" within the fullers is typically Georgian and has no analogies in Iran.

IMHO: pure Georgian, most likely Tiflis, second quarter of 19-th century.
And gorgeous.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.