23rd October 2012, 12:03 AM | #1 |
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kris for comment
I hope is the right place for put the only keris of my collections on the table
tank for your comments in advance bonsoir a tous jacques |
23rd October 2012, 02:07 AM | #2 |
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Hey Jacques. I thought for a moment that is might indeed be the wrong place to post this when i read your title. We generally differentiate Indonesian keris (which have their own forum) from Moro kris though a difference in spelling. While i am not sure calling a Moro kris by the spelling keris is "academically" incorrect, i think you might be able to see that separating the two through spelling can help make discussion less confusing. If you don't mind i am going to change the spelling in your title to kris so that other members that are interested in Moro kris will see immediately that this is a thread to check in on.
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23rd October 2012, 02:19 AM | #3 |
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kris
tank very much for that and for the lesson,I try to learn more about
regard jacques |
23rd October 2012, 02:35 AM | #4 |
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A VERY NICE MORO KRIS, I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE WITH SO MUCH MOTHER OF PEARL SHELL. IT IS VERY ATTRACTIVE, THE BLADE IS A NICE WATERED STEEL PATTERENED ONE. THIS KRIS IS MOST LIKELY FROM MINDINAO ISLAND NOT SURE OF WHICH MORO GROUP MADE IT. I LIKE IT WHO EVER HAD IT MADE IT MADE IT FOR SHOW AND IT SURE IS AN EYE CATCHER.
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23rd October 2012, 03:03 AM | #5 | |
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23rd October 2012, 03:37 AM | #6 |
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I agree David, the blade is earlier than the rest. MOP was actually used before WWII, but not earlier than the turn of the 20c. However, so much MOP is a later use. I there also agree that is maybe circa WWII MOP fittings.
Also the front of the ganga is Sulu type and the blade has a little Indonesian style to it. Still I would say Sulu region as the place of origin. |
24th October 2012, 10:54 AM | #7 |
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Hello Jacques, very nice Moro kris indeed! My first impression was also, wow so much mother of pearl! Though wanted to add that -as Barry noticed very sharply the MOP on the scabbard may be later- I think the engraved MOP pieces on the top and bottom of the scabbard are probably older as they look more yellowish from handling.
Usually the middle section -now covered with the MOP mozaïk- is wounded with fine rattanstring which brakes easily when old n dried out. I do feel its all authentically done (no restauration by a dealer or collector) at a later stadium, although they dont have the two dots of the wood pegs to attach them as the pieces on the handle. The long pieces on the handle are also attached at a this later stadium as when handling these pieces would also acquire a much yellower patine from handling. However as this may sound a bit negative, I believe its not so bad as who wouldnt want to own this magnificent piece! The blade has a very powerfull presence! And its a wonder almost all MOPpiecses are still there. On style and origins, I would myself not ascribe it to Sulu but more to the mainland of Mindanao >Maranao?< as the handle (geometrically) resembles a horsefoot and Sulu-pieces tend to have more the gracious cockatoo type of handle. Enjoy the piece n regards, Indiana |
24th October 2012, 11:19 AM | #8 |
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Not sure if anyone has mentioned that the blade is on the hilt backwards, and needs to be reset.
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24th October 2012, 04:59 PM | #9 | |
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24th October 2012, 05:47 PM | #10 | |
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I think that Jose was relating to the blade when he stated the Sulu origin. Regards, Detlef |
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24th October 2012, 05:55 PM | #11 |
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kris
bonjour everybody
charles I don't anderstand what you mint about backward ..is the hilt turned 180 degree? one more pic regard |
24th October 2012, 06:15 PM | #12 | |
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24th October 2012, 06:22 PM | #13 | |
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24th October 2012, 06:51 PM | #14 |
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THE ORIENTATION OF KRIS HANDLES COMES UP OFTEN. THIS EXAMPLE AS WELL AS OTHERS WAS LIKELY MOUNTED THAT WAY WHEN THE SCABBARD AND SHIETH WAS MADE. ( I THINK THIS BECAUSE WHOEVER DID ALL THE MOP SHELL WOULD LIKELY KNOW HOW IT SHOULD BE MOUNTED AND CERTIANLY WOULD NOT WANT TO HAVE TO REMOVE THE BLADE AND REMOUNT IT ESPECIALLY AS SOME MOP WOULD LIKELY COME OFF IN THE PROCESS.
WHEN MAKEING THE HOLE FOR THE TANG ON MANY IF NOT MOST THE TANG WILL ONLY FIT EASILY ONE WAY. UNLIKE THE JAPANESE SWORD COLLECTORS PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS SELDOM REMOVE HANDLES OFF MORO WEAPONS TO LOOK FOR A SIGNATURE SO MOST ARE LEFT AS THEY ARE. IS IT POSSIBLE KREIS HANDLES ORIENTATED IN THIS BACKWARED WAY WERE FOR LEFT HANDED WARRIORS ? THIS TYPE OF MOP WORK AND THE DESIGNS WAS WHAT I SAW A LOT OF IN ZAMBOANGA. THEY HAVE A BIG INDUSTRY USING MOP THERE AND DO VERY GOOD WORK IN THAT AREA LOTS OF MOP JEWELRY, BRACELETS ,NECKLACES, PINS ECT. I AGREE THE BLADE IS LIKELY AN OLD ONE WITH A LATER REDO WITH MOP. IT SEEMS WHEN A WARRIOR HAS BEEN SUCESSFUL AND HAS PROSPERED WHEN HE TURNS THE BUSINESS OVER TO HIS SONS AND REITIRES HE DRESSES UP HIS KRIS AS A SYMBOL OF HIS SUCESS AND IT BECOMES A SORT OF PUSAKA (FAMILY HEIRLOOM). WALKING AROUND WITH A KERIS LIKE THIS ONE WOULD CATCH THE EYE AND SURELY SHOW YOU WERE SOMEONE SPECIAL IN THE VILLAGE. Last edited by VANDOO; 24th October 2012 at 07:03 PM. |
24th October 2012, 07:08 PM | #15 |
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Hello Jacques,
I'm with Jose: blade is Sulu - looks fairly typical to me. Jose, could you please point out what feels Indonesian to you? I'd believe the blade to be from the "Span-Am war" period or even maybe a bit earlier like last quarter of 19th c. Scabbard as well as hilt are distinctly Sulu and obviously a later restoration/replacement/addition (pre-WW2?). The MOP on the crosspiece, endpiece, and hilt are traditionally fastened with the pegs and most likely genuine (the very uncommon MOP grip would make this sword a status piece less suitable for fighting though). The other, unusual MOP pieces are not traditionally fastened with pegs and I guess these could be post-WW2 additions to merely up the bling factor. Jacques, can you make out how these are attached? The usual metal strips connecting the hilt to the asang-asang also appear to missing - maybe these got damaged/lost in a cleaning attempt and the hilt happened to be put on upside down afterwards? Heating the blade will help to get the hilt off; please take a pic of the hilt hole and the blade tang and post it - thanks! Regards, Kai |
24th October 2012, 11:19 PM | #16 |
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kris hilt
kai tanks for your time, imposible remouve the hilt fron the tang the wood
is too fragil over the mop I learn a lot about kris regard jacques (sorry for my ''anglais'' |
24th October 2012, 11:48 PM | #17 | |
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25th October 2012, 01:45 AM | #18 |
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As I look at this again, I guess I was a little fooled by the asang-asang. They are truly done later than the blade. Their style and thinness sort of look Indonesian or Malay to me, if they were original and on a Malay or Indonesian sundang.
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29th October 2012, 10:00 AM | #19 |
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Jacques,
have a look at a pic Battara posted under the topic 'barong beauty'. The last pic he posted will show exactly your type of kris with the thin rattan lashing I meant (now gone and replaced by MOPshell) though with the engraved mop-shell pieces atop and bottom of the scabbard! |
29th October 2012, 03:36 PM | #20 | |
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29th October 2012, 04:25 PM | #21 |
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Okee, so the kris from Jacques and the kris from the pic would have a different place of origin David? I may know a bit but am far from an expert on this area. I understand the blade is Sulu so would also the whole kris be considered Sulu?
One can also notice the handle on the picture-kris is indeed in the opposite direction as the kris in question, as CharlesS noticed (first). |
29th October 2012, 09:23 PM | #22 | |
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Hello Wouter,
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Regards, Kai |
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29th October 2012, 09:28 PM | #23 | |
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Hello Jose,
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BTW, the other kris above also displays rather thin/slender asang-asang and may be from a similar period than our estimated replacement... Regards, Kai |
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29th October 2012, 09:41 PM | #24 | ||
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Hello David,
Sorry for being late to respond: Quote:
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If present, those metal straps could be fastened to the hilt with pins and any small ring-like ferrule or even a tiny band of rattan might be enough to stabilize them under stress despite the (weak and brittle) MOP. OTOH, I agree that this kris in its present incarnation wasn't intended to be a personal weapon but rather something to show off status. Regards, Kai |
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29th October 2012, 09:46 PM | #25 | |
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You are welcome, Jacques!
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It certainly would be worth the effort if only to turn the hilt into the correct position! Regards, Kai |
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29th October 2012, 10:19 PM | #26 | |
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29th October 2012, 10:53 PM | #27 | |
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