13th August 2014, 12:18 AM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
keris sajen majapahit marks
Has anyone made a study of the marks often seen on these blades some call fingerprints. I am speaking of the deliberate indentations made along the blade of such keris. Specifically I want to know if the number of indentations follows numeric rules (like the luk in keris) such as always being an odd number or if some numbers are seen more then others such a 3 or 7 also if older ones tend to have a number that differs from later ones eg fewer or more indents.
The oldest wavy sajen keris I have seen have all been 3 luk blades, would be interesting to see if the oldest straight bladed keris sajen tend to have three indents along the length of the blade. I know some are going to say these indents are the result of shrinkage whilst cooling, I personally don't believe that, I think they are deliberate markings. |
13th August 2014, 12:36 AM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,882
|
|
13th August 2014, 12:40 AM | #3 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Ha, i was just going to link that post for Pusaka, Alan. You beat me to the punch…or rather "picit"…
|
13th August 2014, 01:01 AM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
I read it before I posted But it does not answer my question about a numerical study of these markings, I think they are blessing markings and are a permanent feature of a blessing that has taken place (the real ones, not the faked ones).
|
13th August 2014, 04:13 AM | #5 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Well, i suppose one could call them "blessing markings". I have always considered the act to be one way in which the empu "charges" the keris. I have a few of these which i am pretty sure are the real deal. None of them are keris sajen btw, but they are fairly early talismanic blades. One has 3 imprints (2 on on side and one on the other). I also have one with 5 which all seem to have been pressed from the same side. I think that with most things relating to keris the key factor in that the number of imprints will be odd just as with the number of luk. But yes, this is indeed, most probably a spiritual/magickal act by the empu. It may not serve the same purpose or be meant to deliver the same exact energy into the blade in each and every case though. I would think that the exact nature/purpose of the act will probably not be discernible at this point in time however.
|
13th August 2014, 10:07 AM | #6 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
I call them blessing marks just for want of a better word but they are actually produced during the process of transforming a keris from a dead keris to an alive keris, or if you prefer a charged keris.
The esoteric method of doing this is still known to some and is a very secret thing if you are passed this information. |
13th August 2014, 03:23 PM | #7 | ||
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
13th August 2014, 03:41 PM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
I did not mean that in order to make a keris alive you need to stick your fingers into molten metal but the method of making a keris come alive involves pinching the keris blade between thumb and index finger a particular number of times along the length of the blade whilst reciting mantra.
This is done over a period of a specific number of days after which the kris is said to be alive. I cant be more specific than that as am not allowed, but you will understand the significance of the number of indents. |
13th August 2014, 05:42 PM | #9 | ||
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
13th August 2014, 06:46 PM | #10 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
Quote:
who knows maybe another on here, might come forward, that would be shocking wouldn't it |
|
13th August 2014, 09:46 PM | #11 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
|
Right:
I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you . |
13th August 2014, 10:20 PM | #12 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
|
August 2006
I cannot count the number of times since this subforum was founded that people have passed through claiming the knowledge that you claim, my friend .
If it is something that cannot be shared then it is something we cannot discuss; can we ? So, secret knowledge aside; can we please move on . |
13th August 2014, 10:39 PM | #13 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
Quote:
Anyway onwards and upwards, my purpose of making this thread is to establish if these keris markings follow numeric patterns, old vs newer, odd/even, 3,5,7,9 who knows maybe even numbers too. |
|
13th August 2014, 11:56 PM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,882
|
Comment withdrawn.
Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 13th August 2014 at 11:59 PM. Reason: second thoughts |
14th August 2014, 02:18 AM | #15 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
|
Quote:
|
|
14th August 2014, 10:38 AM | #16 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
The supposed 250 year old 32 paged (interesting number) keris manuscript depicts the Taming sari to have been a keris Picit. Have not read much about the legends surrounding this keris to know if it is consistently depicted as such.
The manuscript goes into detail about such markings but from a Sufi perspective or at least a Sufi interpretation of such markings. |
14th August 2014, 11:55 AM | #17 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
BTW, Taming Sari is supposedly part of the Perak royal regalia and that keris at least is not a keris picit. It would probably not be consistent to legend for Taming Sari to be keris picit since the legends tend to speak of it as a martial weapon, not a talismanic one. I have never seen a keris picit that was meant for or would be suitable for martial activity. They are purely talismanic blades. |
|
14th August 2014, 12:43 PM | #18 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
You failed to understand/interpret the diagram on the left I take it then
|
14th August 2014, 07:19 PM | #19 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
Of course, simply because a document exists, even one that is 250 years old, that claims to diagram Taming Sari does not mean that it is an accurate description of the actual blade which is supposed to be much older than that in origin. I also wonder about the value of Sufi interpretations about a Mojopahit blade that came out of Hindu cultural context. BTW, here are images of the blade that in held with the Perak regalia. There seems to be at least some legitimate provenance regarding its lineage, though there are some gaps and questions to be sure. Separating fact from fiction in these cases is always a challenge, often an impossible one. You might want to actually read up on Taming Sari since you admit that you are not really up on the legends. Interesting story… |
|
15th August 2014, 07:10 PM | #20 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
David
I cant read it either, but the diagram is enough. |
16th August 2014, 05:41 PM | #21 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
|
|
16th August 2014, 06:23 PM | #22 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
BTW, for those who don't read the language i put the photo caption through Google Translator and then searched out some of the words that didn't translate at first until i had the most coherent interpretation i could get.
Investigators and collecting artifacts related to the history of the Malay and Islamic Heritage Gallery Ancestors, in Seremban, Negeri Sembilan, Wan Ahmad Arshad show documents that contains Taming Sari keris sketch. Wan Ahmad alleges save manuscripts believed to be 250 years old, tells the story of Taming Sari keris, once said to support the theory of the existence of Hang Tuah. 32 manuscript pages in Arabic and old Malay helped attract European buyers, rather than a collection of artifacts obtained in Terengganu, about three months ago. The manuscript also makes specific reference to the Hang Tuah, Taming Sari keris and keris of Hang Jebat. I would have a much harder time translating the old Malay and Arabic used in the diagrams themselves, but i am not convinced that what we are looking at displays keris picit at all. The series of circles and lines on these drawings could be meant to be pamor patterns or it might be some kind os mystical energy flow chart. The sketch on the left reminds me of chakras. But there is nothing there that seems to indicate that this blade is supposed to have been keris picit. |
16th August 2014, 08:58 PM | #23 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
|
Quote:
http://kemuningwarisan.blogspot.co.u...ttani-dlm.html |
|
17th August 2014, 02:02 AM | #24 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
|
|
14th January 2024, 03:44 AM | #25 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
Another post from the archives...
Does anyone know is a complete English translation of this document has been made? |
15th January 2024, 04:19 PM | #26 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
And i guess these aren't so much documents as diagrams. The link in #23 says the diagram writing is in Siamese so i presume they mean Thai. The diagram in #16 may well be Thai as well. Not sure if we have anyone on board here who is fluent in Thai. |
|
16th January 2024, 07:31 AM | #27 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
#16 David, I consider it a document, the other a weblink.
|
16th January 2024, 08:58 PM | #28 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Well, i'm not sure if that is Thai or not written on those diagrams, but to my eye i would say that even if i knew the language, that particular image would not make it easy to translate what is written there. So besides finding someone who knows the language i would say they would probably need a better image work from for a complete translation.
|
17th January 2024, 02:09 PM | #29 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
Quote:
Whilst I understand the complexities you note if one was to present the single image supplied in the article to the forum, I am simply curious to know if anyone within the forum, or external readers who may want to get in touch, know if a translation of the manuscript in full has been completed, or if it is being worked upon? Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 17th January 2024 at 02:20 PM. Reason: Image addition |
|
18th January 2024, 08:33 PM | #30 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
Hopefully somebody knows more about this manuscript. Pusaka didn't mention where he sourced the image from at the time. |
|
|
|