Use of Actual Vintage Arms as Props in Early Films

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.... I am wondering if anyone has seen any specific literature on this apparently very esoteric subject. Jerseyman, do you know of references?
The books you noted on the actors as swordsmen, but nothing on the weapons they used.

I have just acquired a 'Celtic/La Tene' sword, with an anthropomorphic hilt in cast bronze, nicely stamped 'Verch & Flothow', Charlottenburg' They made weapons for stage combat for the Charlottenburg Palace Theatre in Berlin late 19c/early 20c. They made swords for plays and operas covering all periods.



I can't find much by googling that, but I did find one of their rapiers that went for a multi-thousand Euro price recently.



I've been told they were made with German meticulousness, with the same methods an original antique one would have been.


You might be able to use that and branch out your research.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Rick

Splits in the handles of older Sikkins seem almost ubiquitous.

Yeah... The mouth on the pommel end seems almost made to facilitate it.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by werecow

Yeah... The mouth on the pommel end seems almost made to facilitate it.

I use 'Hooflex' on my horn grips.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by kronckew

:) I use 'Hooflex' on my horn grips.

I've used neatsfoot oil on a dried out yataghan grip before, so that makes sense.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

I have just acquired a 'Celtic/La Tene' sword, with an anthropomorphic hilt in cast bronze, nicely stamped 'Verch & Flothow', Charlottenburg' They made weapons for stage combat for the Charlottenburg Palace Theatre in Berlin late 19c/early 20c. They made swords for plays and operas covering all periods.



I can't find much by googling that, but I did find one of their rapiers that went for a multi-thousand Euro price recently.



I've been told they were made with German meticulousness, with the same methods an original antique one would have been.


You might be able to use that and branch out your research.

That is really helpful!! Thats the first definitive maker name I have seen.
Thank you so much!

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That is really helpful!! Thats the first definitive maker name I have seen.
Thank you so much!

Another name for you Aug. Schneider, Berlin.


From theatrical swords: (not mine) 19-20c

[Lead Snowstorm]

For those interested in more 'modern' weapons, my most frequently encountered weapons with cinematic heritage tend to be the various trapdoor rifles (usually 1873-1884). On the one hand, they were of course the actual weapons used in the west, which was formerly a very hot subject of interest, although cooling lately.

On the other hand, as the last of the sidelock, hammer-fired rifles, they conveniently could fire cartridge blanks but be mocked-up to look like flintlocks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0lO...rgottenWeapons

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...5-c-121427f8a3

[Ian]

Jim,

I'm just getting to your fascinating thread on theatrical weapons. You mentioned people going through old movie companies' prop collections and culling weapons. In eBay's early days there was a Californian seller who had a ton of this stuff. I bought a few pieces. Of note were two swords from Yul Brunner's version of Genghis Khan (1965). Both swords were for extras. Each was a U.S. cavalry saber from the 1860s from which the hilt and guard had been removed and a crude aluminum hilt added. I still have them somewhere and I think I still have the sales docket from the late 90s/early 2000s. I believe the sabers came from Bannerman's Catalog originally and were modified on site by the props people.

I have a few other swords from the same source but I don't know which movies they may have been used in. Again, they were 19th C pieces, and from memory they were Austrian sabers (but I will have to dig back in my archives to get that info.).

Cheers,

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Ian;280106]Jim,

I'm just getting to your fascinating thread on theatrical weapons. You mentioned people going through old movie companies' prop collections and culling weapons. In eBay's early days there was a Californian seller who had a ton of this stuff. I bought a few pieces. Of note were two swords from Yul Brunner's Taras Bulba (1962). Both swords were for extras. Each was a U.S. cavalry saber from the 1860s from which the hilt and guard had been removed and a crude aluminum hilt added. I still have them somewhere and I think I still have the sales docket from the late 90s/early 2000s. I believe the sabers came from Bannerman's Catalog originally and were modified on site by the props people.

I have a few other swords from the same source but I don't know which movies they may have been used in. Again, they were 19th C pieces, and from memory they were Austrian sabers (but I will have to dig back in my archives to get that info.).


Thats outstanding Ian! and thank you for adding to this thread. It sounds like the 'adjustments' that were used in customizing these authentic old weapons to add to the ambience in scenes.
No doubt Bannerman's was a great source for this stuff....after the Civil Wat they literally bought old cavalry sabers by the ton. When the Spanish American war broke out (at the behest of William Randolph Hearst who needed headlines for his papers)...the Army needed sabers for the cavalry and had to go to Bannerman to equip them!

[Kmaddock]

Hi All

Spurred on by this thread I purchased over the weekend the following pistol marked Bapty on the barrel

Bapty & Co was established by Mark Dinely in 1919 to produce firearms for film and television.

The pistol was sold as a reproduction but it is actually a genuine Turkish/Caucuses flintlock in good enough condition, The BAPTY mark is on top of the Barrel put there by electro pen and BAP is stamped on beside the trigger also. There is silver wire work alson with silver escutcheon and my friend informs me the mechanism is working.

A mate of mine picked up the gun and I am meeting him this week.

The same company is still going strong and they made the Stormtroopers guns in the original Star Wars and also the guns used by the Marines in Alien 2.

Thanks Jim, I would have ignored the auction listing except for this thread.

Regards,

Ken

picture from auction listing is all I have for moment

[gp]

another positive effect of these films: it did give fencing clubs a membership boost!

When my daughter was 13 or 14....she fell in love with a very handsome pirate from the Caribbean....Jack Sparrow!
Persistant as she was, my daughter that is, traded swimming and ballet for fencing !
I guess quite some fencing clubs did grow because of Jack Sparrow....

When I was a young lad, my hero was Zorro (Guy Williams) but it was not easy and quite expensive to get fencing or sword lessons.

Glad my daughter and many girls with her had that opportunity; membership was only 30 Euro's per month and a foil or epee for 100 ( less than football/soccer boots...)

and talking vintage: vintage epees or foils can be bought for very reasonable prices in Germany, Austria, France, Belgium and the Netherlands

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi All

Spurred on by this thread I purchased over the weekend the following pistol marked Bapty on the barrel

Bapty & Co was established by Mark Dinely in 1919 to produce firearms for film and television.

The pistol was sold as a reproduction but it is actually a genuine Turkish/Caucuses flintlock in good enough condition, The BAPTY mark is on top of the Barrel put there by electro pen and BAP is stamped on beside the trigger also. There is silver wire work alson with silver escutcheon and my friend informs me the mechanism is working.

A mate of mine picked up the gun and I am meeting him this week.

The same company is still going strong and they made the Stormtroopers guns in the original Star Wars and also the guns used by the Marines in Alien 2.

Thanks Jim, I would have ignored the auction listing except for this thread.

Regards,

Ken

picture from auction listing is all I have for moment

Cool. I wonder if it is Turkish proof marked & might fire a blank charge at least...

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for this entry Ken! How exciting to see this outcome, which is a perfect illustration of the existence of actual weaponry which became clouded by presence among weaponry used by studios for films. As Ian has noted earlier, often standard military weapons were altered to simulate the types of weapons of the period and setting.

It is interesting that as films relied heavily on action scenes, especially with the silent films, dramatically exaggerated and intense action often resulted in a degree of accidental injury to the actors. Often actual fencing sabers of the time were used as they were lighter and 'faster' to accommodate such movement.

GP, Hooray for your daughter!!!!! I am totally with you, when I was a 'young lad' too.....in '56 when the first Zorro series with Walt Disney's productions began, and this was what set me on a lifelong odyssey with swords.
When I finally took fencing my dad scoffed, 'great Jim, something you can always use!

[Jim McDougall]

In current research and concerning early films, in particular the black & white of course, the actors were typically heavily made up so their expressions were visible to accentuate the drama in sequences.

I discovered it was not just the actors who were 'painted' but also furniture, props etc............and for our purposes here.....WEAPONS!

Over the years, on occasion many old weapons coming up for sale had been painted many years before. I was of course always horrified by this, wondering what sort of fiend would do this to a wonderful old sword!?

Apparently, different colors would photograph differently in the old film and lighting, and it was necessary to use varied colors to achieve harmony in the setting, otherwise it would be a virtual kaleidoscope of imagery.
They actually had coded paint colors to be used in certain situations or in alignment with other colors in object groupings.

So it would seem very likely that these garishly painted old weapons may well have been used in early films as props.

[werecow]

Not exactly an "early" film, but... Interesting wizard staff design you got there, Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power...

[Jim McDougall]

Just found out that the walls of the Addams family house in the TV series were PINK!!! theres a Halloween tidbit.

[werecow]

Again, not an early film, but was watching Dune: Prophecy, and, well...



I think there's at least one ethnographic arms expert on staff in Hollywood doing the rounds in the SF and Fantasy circuit. Which one of you is it?

EDIT: Argh. I don't know why this forum keeps flipping my pictures. But you know what it is.

[David R]

I did some filming for Disney back in the 1980's when they were setting up a "ride" for Disney World Paris. Interesting experience, and during preparation they were issuing some actors with original and genuine Ottoman armour!

Similarly when working for the BBC on the series "Soldiers" they dressed the battlefield with some original French Cuirasses. In both cases these had come from UK based Props/costume companies, and you could see multiple stick on labels from the previous hundred years or so.

Never got any pics at the time as it was pre phone-camera times, but here's some shots from the BBC production. Dunno who took them, but shared by my old reenactment group to Fb. Btw, I'm the French Sergeant in these shots. Great Days!

[Jim McDougall]

David! Some FASCINATING background there! and its fascinating that you got to see this stuff firsthand. I keep recalling guys I knew who got some amazing pieces in auctions when they cleared out movie prop and costume warehouses in the 70s.
I heard of a dealer who furnished numbers of authentic weapons on loan for "Pirates of the Caribbean" and another who had various Spanish colonial arms and items (even antique ox arts) for period movies.

[David R]

Once its in the props store it's not an antique anymore, but just an old prop! Valued no more and no less than than any other.... and they hang on to them like mad.
It's the same with "frocks" (costume) valued only for its use on stage or in front of the camera. I worked in Leeds costume dept for ten years and saw it first hand.

[kino]

Chief Scar revealed his collection of scalps, strung along the shaft of a Moro Budiak.