Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Comparison of Decorations on Arms and non-Arms Objects

Atlantia · 30th September 2009, 06:10 PM

Hi all,
I know I'm 'expanding' this discussion a little and I hope Alex will forgive me for this little 'aside'?
We have on occasion discussed fittings, scabbard mounts, incised designs etc, and conjectured on how they were produced.
With that in mind, I would like to share (again) my favourite Qajar style Persian bronze tray (which seems fitting in Alex thread as he has helped me so much in understanding it).

We know that this tray was produced in Isfahan in 1895. The style and quality wouldn't look out of place significantly earlier than that though.
Anyway, keep reading, my reasons will hopefully become clear...

Then, if you turn the tray over, on the undecorated back, there are clear signs of the beginnings of a different design, presumably abandoned in favour of this one.
Why is this interesting?
Because it was being 'drawn' in tiny hammered dots from a sharp needle/point.
Which led me back to the 'face' side and sure enough, in a few places you can see where lines have cut through lines of these tiny dots.
I know this isn't an 'earth shattering' revelation, but it does answer a few questions for me, and I hope others will be interested in how some of this metalwork was actually produced.

Please excuse the pictures of these 'dot' patterns, they are quite indistinct under the patina and I've had to alter the contrast etc, to show them a little more clearly.

Presumably, this is the same method (or one of the favoured ones) for producing similar quality designs in silver etc, I wonder if it was used on steel?

I always assumed that these designs would have been drawn onto the metal with something like engravers blue, then chiseled straight into the metal.
If you look at the picture showing the bird outline, there are around 150/200 dots in just that one tiny element. Estimate/multiply that to the smaller 3" picture of the front side, even with basic outlines it would be several thousand dots, which would equate to (by my estimate) well over 100,000 across the whole tray.
And thats before the engraver even started to 'join the dots' and cut in the detail.
Even a small area such as would be needed for a scabbard mount, or a simpler design cut into the harder steel of a helmet would be an incredibly time consuming process.
Which started me wondering if the engraver had a mechanical tool of some sort with a vibrating point?

30th September 2009, 06:10 PM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi all, I know I'm 'expanding' this discussion a little and I hope Alex will forgive me for this little 'aside'? We have on occasion discussed fittings, scabbard mounts, incised designs etc, and conjectured on how they were produced. With that in mind, I would like to share (again) my favourite Qajar style Persian bronze tray (which seems fitting in Alex thread as he has helped me so much in understanding it). We know that this tray was produced in Isfahan in 1895. The style and quality wouldn't look out of place significantly earlier than that though. Anyway, keep reading, my reasons will hopefully become clear... Then, if you turn the tray over, on the undecorated back, there are clear signs of the beginnings of a different design, presumably abandoned in favour of this one. Why is this interesting? Because it was being 'drawn' in tiny hammered dots from a sharp needle/point. Which led me back to the 'face' side and sure enough, in a few places you can see where lines have cut through lines of these tiny dots. I know this isn't an 'earth shattering' revelation, but it does answer a few questions for me, and I hope others will be interested in how some of this metalwork was actually produced. Please excuse the pictures of these 'dot' patterns, they are quite indistinct under the patina and I've had to alter the contrast etc, to show them a little more clearly. Presumably, this is the same method (or one of the favoured ones) for producing similar quality designs in silver etc, I wonder if it was used on steel? I always assumed that these designs would have been drawn onto the metal with something like engravers blue, then chiseled straight into the metal. If you look at the picture showing the bird outline, there are around 150/200 dots in just that one tiny element. Estimate/multiply that to the smaller 3" picture of the front side, even with basic outlines it would be several thousand dots, which would equate to (by my estimate) well over 100,000 across the whole tray. And thats before the engraver even started to 'join the dots' and cut in the detail. Even a small area such as would be needed for a scabbard mount, or a simpler design cut into the harder steel of a helmet would be an incredibly time consuming process. Which started me wondering if the engraver had a mechanical tool of some sort with a vibrating point? Last edited by Atlantia; 1st October 2009 at 05:32 PM.