Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2015, 05:45 PM

Salaams all... and ~

Interesting similarity in the peculiar A letter show up in Forum at #152 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=6&pp=30

indicating the Toledo situation...

and at picture 60 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=7&pp=30

and at #204 on the Bergundian Halibard also at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=7&pp=30

Following that, if I may reproduce the exact post as the late Michael who stated among his brilliant details on European Weapons the following...

Quote" The Gothic majuscule A mark no. 60 in Waldman's book stands, as I have pointed out several times, for the Bavarian weapons center of the city of Augsburg. In this case it is struck and brass-inlaid on an early 16th c. halberd formerly in Waldman's collection and sold by Christie's a few years ago.

For another Augsburg Gothic A mark on a 14th c. blade, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rg+Gothic+mark ''.Unquote.

************************************************** ************************************************** *********************

Are we looking at a sword from Augsberg? or is this only an example of the Majuscule A letter? I have to say it is interesting since the other capitals seem to be bracketted by an A at each end; perhaps indicating an Augsberg foundry...Could this be a birthmark?

In respect of this situation I reproduce this post by Jim McDougall on this subject and from the above thread as follows;

Quote" Michael, thank you so much for the kind words, and for the illustrations of the haquebut c.1600 with one of these majuscule 'A''s.

In going through "Waffenkunde" (W.Boeheim, 1890, p.678) an marking which is very much like the shape of this A with the crossbar atop and no center bar is shown as unidentified, but attributed to Augsburg 15th century. Thus, it seems that the character may have been known without the central rib as well and in Augsburg.

In Boeheim, other examples of these type A letters are seen with other initials and types of crossbar and serif, some attributed to 16th century makers or armourers such as Durer, Aldegrever and Glockendon all from various cities.

It seems that even among the Toledo and Madrid smiths a number of them of the 16th century used the letter A enclosed in cartouche of varying shapes, but often square, with one using the identical style A with V shape crossbar (listed in "Arms and Armour", A. Demmin, 1877, p.567). This one is shown to Alonzo de Caba, armourer. Another with extended bar top cap and drooping serifs at ends, straight center bar to Alonzo de Buena, of same period. There are a number of other A types with varying flourish, serif or structure.

While these obviously indicate the initial of the armourer, it was interesting to see the similarity in majascule style A to these German examples, suggesting the well known traffic in arms and armour commerce between these countries.

Returning to the more arcane, with the mysterious Westphalia tribunals previously mentioned, they had several little known coded alphabets, in which the diagonal lines with top bar and dropped serifs at the ends in the basic shape of the A sans crossbar......in one alphabet the letter 'L' is signified and in another the letter 'Y'. (Demmin, p.582).

So it would seem perhaps that while the letter A could signify Augsburg in the case of the stamp on the haquebut and other items, these stylized majascule letters with varying embellishments also may have been more widely used with different meanings in other parlances. There are many markings which reflect makers marks, with others being monograms of rulers of minor principalities, then of course the guild marks of various centers of arms production.

These are the mysteries that make the study of these blade markings so fascinating"! Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

30th August 2015, 05:45 PM	#88
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all... and ~ Interesting similarity in the peculiar A letter show up in Forum at #152 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=6&pp=30 indicating the Toledo situation... and at picture 60 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=7&pp=30 and at #204 on the Bergundian Halibard also at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=7&pp=30 Following that, if I may reproduce the exact post as the late Michael who stated among his brilliant details on European Weapons the following... Quote" The Gothic majuscule A mark no. 60 in Waldman's book stands, as I have pointed out several times, for the Bavarian weapons center of the city of Augsburg. In this case it is struck and brass-inlaid on an early 16th c. halberd formerly in Waldman's collection and sold by Christie's a few years ago. For another Augsburg Gothic A mark on a 14th c. blade, please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rg+Gothic+mark ''.Unquote. ************************************************ ********************************************** ******************* Are we looking at a sword from Augsberg? or is this only an example of the Majuscule A letter? I have to say it is interesting since the other capitals seem to be bracketted by an A at each end; perhaps indicating an Augsberg foundry...Could this be a birthmark? In respect of this situation I reproduce this post by Jim McDougall on this subject and from the above thread as follows; Quote" Michael, thank you so much for the kind words, and for the illustrations of the haquebut c.1600 with one of these majuscule 'A''s. In going through "Waffenkunde" (W.Boeheim, 1890, p.678) an marking which is very much like the shape of this A with the crossbar atop and no center bar is shown as unidentified, but attributed to Augsburg 15th century. Thus, it seems that the character may have been known without the central rib as well and in Augsburg. In Boeheim, other examples of these type A letters are seen with other initials and types of crossbar and serif, some attributed to 16th century makers or armourers such as Durer, Aldegrever and Glockendon all from various cities. It seems that even among the Toledo and Madrid smiths a number of them of the 16th century used the letter A enclosed in cartouche of varying shapes, but often square, with one using the identical style A with V shape crossbar (listed in "Arms and Armour", A. Demmin, 1877, p.567). This one is shown to Alonzo de Caba, armourer. Another with extended bar top cap and drooping serifs at ends, straight center bar to Alonzo de Buena, of same period. There are a number of other A types with varying flourish, serif or structure. While these obviously indicate the initial of the armourer, it was interesting to see the similarity in majascule style A to these German examples, suggesting the well known traffic in arms and armour commerce between these countries. Returning to the more arcane, with the mysterious Westphalia tribunals previously mentioned, they had several little known coded alphabets, in which the diagonal lines with top bar and dropped serifs at the ends in the basic shape of the A sans crossbar......in one alphabet the letter 'L' is signified and in another the letter 'Y'. (Demmin, p.582). So it would seem perhaps that while the letter A could signify Augsburg in the case of the stamp on the haquebut and other items, these stylized majascule letters with varying embellishments also may have been more widely used with different meanings in other parlances. There are many markings which reflect makers marks, with others being monograms of rulers of minor principalities, then of course the guild marks of various centers of arms production. These are the mysteries that make the study of these blade markings so fascinating"! Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 30th August 2015 at 06:32 PM.