Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:47 PM

Old 20th March 2014, 04:54 AM #259

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you so much for posting this, its great to see this venerable thread revived. This is indeed an interesting grouping and inscription on this blade.
Michael, thank you so much for coming in on this!! and for the excellent input on these Swiss mercenary forces which were so prevalent in European armies. This perfectly explains this slogan VIVAT HOLLANDIA .

Actually most blades for the Dutch, and for Swiss forces in these times were typically produced in Solingen, though in many cases there were German smiths working in the Netherlands. I have not been aware of any working in Switzerland.
Solingen in the 18th century was producing numbers of blades for various European countries and there were variations with the 'Vivat' motto.
Others were 'Vivat Pandur' usually on various hangers and hunting weapons including plug bayonets; also 'Vivat Hussar' on military sabres with military motif and panoplies. Many of these were destined for Austria, Hungary and other centers in Europe.

The majuscule IK with the numeral 4 above is most likely a makers initials, and the 4 atop is in similar configuration as this number above the heart on EIC balemark as well as many makers and printers logos using initials topped by the 4. This number is considered talismanic (for the magical/astrological symbol for Jupiter) and was used in the same fashion as the cross and orb so often seen on arms.

In Bezdek (p.142) a mark with large block initials D over K with the 4 above them was used by Dries Klein in Solingen 1610-30. These makers marks and initials were often passed down or sold, but the configurations and use of key symbols (such as the 4) were often adopted in variation. I would say that this Solingen maker (as yet unidentified) probably used this tradition in marking the blade. The doves were a favored Christian symbol sometimes seen on Hungarian blades with magic or talismanic symbols, and used in other similar motif.

Interesting to see these blades occurring in number, and I hope we might see other examples and especially what type blades they are on.
All best regards,
JIm
.

19th October 2017, 03:47 PM	#230
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Old 20th March 2014, 04:54 AM #259 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thank you so much for posting this, its great to see this venerable thread revived. This is indeed an interesting grouping and inscription on this blade. Michael, thank you so much for coming in on this!! and for the excellent input on these Swiss mercenary forces which were so prevalent in European armies. This perfectly explains this slogan VIVAT HOLLANDIA . Actually most blades for the Dutch, and for Swiss forces in these times were typically produced in Solingen, though in many cases there were German smiths working in the Netherlands. I have not been aware of any working in Switzerland. Solingen in the 18th century was producing numbers of blades for various European countries and there were variations with the 'Vivat' motto. Others were 'Vivat Pandur' usually on various hangers and hunting weapons including plug bayonets; also 'Vivat Hussar' on military sabres with military motif and panoplies. Many of these were destined for Austria, Hungary and other centers in Europe. The majuscule IK with the numeral 4 above is most likely a makers initials, and the 4 atop is in similar configuration as this number above the heart on EIC balemark as well as many makers and printers logos using initials topped by the 4. This number is considered talismanic (for the magical/astrological symbol for Jupiter) and was used in the same fashion as the cross and orb so often seen on arms. In Bezdek (p.142) a mark with large block initials D over K with the 4 above them was used by Dries Klein in Solingen 1610-30. These makers marks and initials were often passed down or sold, but the configurations and use of key symbols (such as the 4) were often adopted in variation. I would say that this Solingen maker (as yet unidentified) probably used this tradition in marking the blade. The doves were a favored Christian symbol sometimes seen on Hungarian blades with magic or talismanic symbols, and used in other similar motif. Interesting to see these blades occurring in number, and I hope we might see other examples and especially what type blades they are on. All best regards, JIm . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:15 PM.