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Originally Posted by Hotspur
Hi Jeff
The information regarding foundries in Philadelphia was mentioned by me and drawn from other's of Bazelon's associates.
Mowbray specifically relates Rose as not a founder, so I have to wonder where you have information pointing to the Rose family casting any brass items at all. It gets no notice or copy in Bazelon's book regarding The Pennsylvania collections, including his Rose biography. Bezdek has a good number of pages on Rose as well. I'll maybe deign to open that to find naught as well but my posting of that would be as inconclusive to you as anything I have drawn from the other sources already posted.
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Glen,
Everyone agrees that there is no evidence Rose or Prahl cast brass. When I say everyone, that would include you , me, Bazelon, etc. The difference is that because Rose and Prahl most likely didn't cast their hilts you have concluded the hilts were imported from Europe. Bazelon came to a different conclusion with well supported information, that they came from the Philadelphia area most likely through a cottage industry. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, but all I would like to know is what information do you have that discredits Bazelon. If you don't think it necessary to bother with the article just let me know where the evidence these hilts were imported to the Philadelphia area from Europe, or any where else for that matter, is. I would actually be very happy if that were true for selfish reasons regarding my own saber.
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Originally Posted by Hotspur
I specifically pointed to the lion pommels listed and that only one pf the four shown are possibly of American origin. I further pointed to Flayderman and the Younger Mowbray as being the least speculative of the newer publications on American swords. Certainly, we see do not see any discussion in the book regarding cast grip lion pommel slotted hilts.
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If your point is that the majority of lion pommeled swords came from Europe, I don't know anyone who would argue with that. If it was that the majority of Brass hilted lion pommel and gripped swords (ie: NCO bandsman etc swords) were European again no one could argue with you. That is why the article specifically limits the discussion to Brass pommeled and gripped lion cavalry
sabers. These seem only to be related to sabers and makers in the Philadelphia area in the revolution-federal period. Again if you have other information please let me know.
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Originally Posted by Hotspur
Irregardless of other debate, my initial contention was regarding what is being touted as America's first recognized sword pattern. What I regarded as interpretation of other author's such as Peterson's #18 and Gilkerson's sketch of what might be brass (while listed as made of the finest materials) makes me question the varacity of any speaking/writing of the Bazelon article when not having it in my hands to read it.
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I recognize that this may be a pesky bee in your bonnet, but, it has nothing to do with the article or discussion at hand.
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Originally Posted by Hotspur
As with many of my replies regarding other's view of information presented, it is easy to make whatever one wants to promote as some truth. It is I that has been quite open in offering the proponents to supply something more than Bazelon's article to bring forth the grail of whom exactly was casting the grips shown (when regarded by other authors as German manufacture).
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If you are discussing Peterson #18, I have never seen any one state the hilt is of German manufacture. All agree the blade is of Solingen make as it is clearly marked. Get used to Bazelon being offered as the holy grail on these hilts, because it is. Until better information is found, or a better argument is made. The internet is a great source of information, but I think you have to start at the beginning and work your way up. That may involve actual paper.
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Originally Posted by Hotspur
Burn one that might seem as a heretic but believe it or not, I have been on your (collective) side in participating at all. I'll always have a soft spot for vikingsword, as it was a very early portal in my interests of swords.
I was done here several posts ago but I have begun to realize you'd rather not accept anything I have offered anyway.
Do carry on with better ID for the sword in question.
Cheers
GC
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All the Best
Jeff