Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2009, 06:20 PM

Hi Jens,
Thank you so much.....I keep getting the reference to fringia in accounts and reviews concerning the book on google search, so it must be in there somewhere, and as in many reference books, not properly indexed.

In continuing the google search, I think I have discovered the possible answers here. I thought of myself as a reader, and wondering about this apparant conundrum, without books or library at hand, the only place I had to turn was the computer and google search.

At first the word 'fringe' kept coming up, which means literally a border, and began to wonder if perhaps fringia might be a Latinized reference to border regions, as in Hungary, which was once (1526-1699) a border region of the Ottoman Empire.

Further searches continued to reveal auctions, such as "Arms and Armor of Archduke Eugen" , a 1927 catalog published in 2008 by Ron Ruble, which showed three Hungarian sabres, all with etched sun. moons and trophies along with FRINGIA.

Others were 19th century Austro-Hungarian mameluke sabre with the same celestial figures as FRINGIA. Another however was a Prussian M1811 Bluchersabel which carried the FRINGIA on the blade.

In a reference by the Hungarian Way History Museum, a very attractive sabre is shown referring to it as a 'Fringia', a typical kind of Hungarian sabre which was developed in early 18th c (?) The origin of the name fringia is still a controversial question, however it is believed to be Turkish.

Now here was support for the potential of Turkish connection to the term, as noted by Manolo and which I have seen previously in various references, but questioned because of the Latin sounding nature of the word.

In further search I then found a title (still under fringia) , "Liberty and the Search for Identity" by Ivan Zoltan Denes (2006, p.221) with reference to the Hungarian gentry c.1860, noting "...the gentry intended to realize this new program with a number of 'refuedalizing' actions: they started to use their FRINGIA, coats of arms and titles of nobility, again, together with all the relics of the old fuedal life".

Here was the term, and referring to its association with earlier fuedalism and tradition, but still unclear on the meaning.

Obviously, the sabres noted by the Hungarian museum developed much earlier than the 18th century, and Hungarian as well as East European, weaponry and military approaches to warfare developed from Turkish models, among clearly many cultural influences.

I then found "Cross and Crescent: Turkish Age in Hungary 1526-1699" an entry in the Encyclopedia Humana Hungarica 05.
This was entirely amazing as it described virtually all facets of the influences in Hungary by its Ottoman suzereigns, and included treatment on the loan words as well.
Regarding weaponry, the term dzsida = a type of spear; handszar =a short sword and damocki = damascus........
But, best of all....
FRINGIA = MADE OF FINE STEEL !!!!

So it would appear that this term, much as with the well established 'Eisenhauer' (= iron cutter, German) was not a maker, but a quality term....and seems to have arisen as early as Stephen Bathory, who was mentioned in the reference to the revival of Hungarian nationalistic pride in the Denes book (op.cit.).

As I began this thread yesterday, and wrote today, I had no knowledge of these references, and found them in the last several hours. Incredibly this was done entirely, and quite literally, sitting in a Winnebago in the remote desert area outside Tucson with only my trusty computer

and what a fun way to spend the morning!

Although these results seem promising, certainly they are not conclusive, and I hope the readers out there will join with Jens, Manolo and myself in using resources at hand and our 'thinking caps' in pursuing this.

Best regards as always,
Jim

8th November 2009, 06:20 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Hi Jens, Thank you so much.....I keep getting the reference to fringia in accounts and reviews concerning the book on google search, so it must be in there somewhere, and as in many reference books, not properly indexed. In continuing the google search, I think I have discovered the possible answers here. I thought of myself as a reader, and wondering about this apparant conundrum, without books or library at hand, the only place I had to turn was the computer and google search. At first the word 'fringe' kept coming up, which means literally a border, and began to wonder if perhaps fringia might be a Latinized reference to border regions, as in Hungary, which was once (1526-1699) a border region of the Ottoman Empire. Further searches continued to reveal auctions, such as "Arms and Armor of Archduke Eugen" , a 1927 catalog published in 2008 by Ron Ruble, which showed three Hungarian sabres, all with etched sun. moons and trophies along with FRINGIA. Others were 19th century Austro-Hungarian mameluke sabre with the same celestial figures as FRINGIA. Another however was a Prussian M1811 Bluchersabel which carried the FRINGIA on the blade. In a reference by the Hungarian Way History Museum, a very attractive sabre is shown referring to it as a 'Fringia', a typical kind of Hungarian sabre which was developed in early 18th c (?) The origin of the name fringia is still a controversial question, however it is believed to be Turkish. Now here was support for the potential of Turkish connection to the term, as noted by Manolo and which I have seen previously in various references, but questioned because of the Latin sounding nature of the word. In further search I then found a title (still under fringia) , "Liberty and the Search for Identity" by Ivan Zoltan Denes (2006, p.221) with reference to the Hungarian gentry c.1860, noting "...the gentry intended to realize this new program with a number of 'refuedalizing' actions: they started to use their FRINGIA, coats of arms and titles of nobility, again, together with all the relics of the old fuedal life". Here was the term, and referring to its association with earlier fuedalism and tradition, but still unclear on the meaning. Obviously, the sabres noted by the Hungarian museum developed much earlier than the 18th century, and Hungarian as well as East European, weaponry and military approaches to warfare developed from Turkish models, among clearly many cultural influences. I then found "Cross and Crescent: Turkish Age in Hungary 1526-1699" an entry in the Encyclopedia Humana Hungarica 05. This was entirely amazing as it described virtually all facets of the influences in Hungary by its Ottoman suzereigns, and included treatment on the loan words as well. Regarding weaponry, the term dzsida = a type of spear; handszar =a short sword and damocki = damascus........ But, best of all.... FRINGIA = MADE OF FINE STEEL !!!! So it would appear that this term, much as with the well established 'Eisenhauer' (= iron cutter, German) was not a maker, but a quality term....and seems to have arisen as early as Stephen Bathory, who was mentioned in the reference to the revival of Hungarian nationalistic pride in the Denes book (op.cit.). As I began this thread yesterday, and wrote today, I had no knowledge of these references, and found them in the last several hours. Incredibly this was done entirely, and quite literally, sitting in a Winnebago in the remote desert area outside Tucson with only my trusty computer and what a fun way to spend the morning! Although these results seem promising, certainly they are not conclusive, and I hope the readers out there will join with Jens, Manolo and myself in using resources at hand and our 'thinking caps' in pursuing this. Best regards as always, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th November 2009 at 09:35 PM.